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Swapping Heads. Needs Advice

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TheZster Avatar
TheZster Steven Z
SAINT LOUIS, MO, USA   USA
1978 Triumph 1500 "BLK-BRY"
In reply to # 1526741 by ras111 OK on head gasket - have a Payen and will install clean - no sealant. I've done this before without issue.

NEW QUESTION: While cleaning the lifters, I noticed some are pitted on the bottom. Should I replace all of them or leave as is.

I actually have a new set of lifters as I was going to change the CAM as well....which I am NOT doing right now. Any concern running with the current lifters? Any issues putting in NEW lifters with my original CAM?


Thanks
Richard

Major issues with "new lifters" per so many threads on this site...... If you read through them.... new lifters/old lifters.... doesn't matter... all will be pitted/trash before long..... General concensus.- based on percentages of posts....... OEM is better than aftermarket.... Be it true?? - don't ask me.... You run the risk either way based on what is on this forum... Me?? - If you have long term plans of replacing the cam.... wait till you do so until you change lifters.... at least - you'll have new lifters and a new cam... to be able to blame problems with......

If she's running OK with what's inside.... don't change a thing until you "change a thing (ie: new cam)....

Z

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ras111 Avatar
ras111 Gold Member Richard Singerman
Dollard des Ormeaux, QC, Canada   CAN
One more question: The Payen gasket I have is part number AK260. It has the metal rings around the cylinders which is what I need......BUT......i noticed that there are two brass rings around small holes along the bottom end - where the pushrods are - one on each side. I compared with the old gasket that just cam off, and these holes are flat - no brass rings. I double checked that the AK260 is the right gasket for my 1976, but have never seen a head gasket with these two little brass rings. Picture below shows one of the holes with the ring. The other is on the left side.

I assume the brass will compress and not be an issue........but looking for confirmation from you guys.

Thanks


Attachments:
Spit - Payen AK260.jpg    49.2 KB
Spit - Payen AK260.jpg

mkivmarty Avatar
mkivmarty Marty Yanik
N.E.Ohio, USA   USA
Chances are, if your lifters are pitted as you describe your cam is already trashed. You probably didn't take any valve lash measurements before disassembly. If you did you could tell how much lift you have lost from various lobes.

Marty

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ras111 Avatar
ras111 Gold Member Richard Singerman
Dollard des Ormeaux, QC, Canada   CAN
No - did not take any measurements. Was planning on changing CAM, but can't this round.....but can put in new lifters if I should. Not all are pitted.....but the cam is original from production date.

SpitMan Avatar
SpitMan Doug Walls
Brandywine, MD, USA   USA
1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIII "Lil' Red Fox"
1998 Chevrolet Corvette "Silver Fox"
2007 Chevrolet Silverado "Workhorse"
2013 Chevrolet Malibu "Pearl Baby"
Leave it alone. Replace the lifters when you get a new cam. Pitted or not those lifters are broken-in to the old cam, new lifters at this point (unless you were having problems before) will only cause other problems.

Doug in Vegas Avatar
Doug in Vegas Douglas D
Las Vegas, NV, USA   USA
The little round rings are on the oil passage and are designed to crush to hold back oil under pressure.

ras111 Avatar
ras111 Gold Member Richard Singerman
Dollard des Ormeaux, QC, Canada   CAN
Perfect - thanks Doug.

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TheZster Avatar
TheZster Steven Z
SAINT LOUIS, MO, USA   USA
1978 Triumph 1500 "BLK-BRY"
In reply to # 1526748 by mkivmarty Chances are, if your lifters are pitted as you describe your cam is already trashed. You probably didn't take any valve lash measurements before disassembly. If you did you could tell how much lift you have lost from various lobes.

Marty
I'm sorry - but ignore the post about your lifters/cam.... It's not relevant at this point....As you have not described your current lifter condition in detail.... - Don't take offense to term "trashed".... No one can tell.... your lifters are worn - yes... and mated to your existing cam.... Yes.... Are they "trashed"... possibly..... are they "worn" probably.... Will they continue to work - no doubt....

Re: your gasket.... Listen to Doug... end of story....



Buy another head gasket when you have the spare $$ --- You'll use it when you replace the cam and "trashed... LOL" lifters...

Z

Doug in Vegas Avatar
Doug in Vegas Douglas D
Las Vegas, NV, USA   USA
Seems "lifers" and "rockers" are getting confused.

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TheZster Avatar
TheZster Steven Z
SAINT LOUIS, MO, USA   USA
1978 Triumph 1500 "BLK-BRY"
In reply to # 1526774 by Doug in Vegas Seems "lifers" and "rockers" are getting confused.

NO... "lifers" are bad folks like you destined for prison...Rockers... folks like me destined for a life of music... LOL

I'm not confusing anything.... I don't think..... Rocker quality has been bashed a lot lately...... Lifter quality the same..... Seems all replacement parts are for crap according to our resident experts.....

I'm just suggesting "if it ain't broke - don't fix it.... YET".... Prior poster suggested his lifters were shot..... I suggest he not worry about it until he has evidence of same... and is ready to do something about it.. (changing cam time)...

Z

spitfire50 Avatar
spitfire50 Paul Mugford
Rochester, N.H., USA   USA
In reply to # 1526776 by TheZster
In reply to # 1526774 by Doug in Vegas Seems "lifers" and "rockers" are getting confused.

NO... "lifers" are bad folks like you destined for prison...Rockers... folks like me destined for a life of music... LOL

I'm not confusing anything.... I don't think..... Rocker quality has been bashed a lot lately...... Lifter quality the same..... Seems all replacement parts are for crap according to our resident experts.....

I'm just suggesting "if it ain't broke - don't fix it.... YET".... Prior poster suggested his lifters were shot..... I suggest he not worry about it until he has evidence of same... and is ready to do something about it.. (changing cam time)...

Z
Steve,
Pitting on the working face of the lifter is a sure indication of the failure of the hardening of that surface. That sort of wear does not stop, nor is it limited to the face of the lifter. The cam lobe the lifter runs against will also be damaged. It probably makes sense to check the cam lift on each lobe before bolting the head back down. Less lift at the lobe =more wear and softer material in the mix. So faster wear too.
All the best,
Paul

SpitMan Avatar
SpitMan Doug Walls
Brandywine, MD, USA   USA
1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIII "Lil' Red Fox"
1998 Chevrolet Corvette "Silver Fox"
2007 Chevrolet Silverado "Workhorse"
2013 Chevrolet Malibu "Pearl Baby"
Agree thumbs up.

But he does not want to put in a new cam at this time. Me, if the measurements showed the cam lobe/lobes is/are worn badly, then I would replace with a new cam and new lifters.
If the measurements are marginal then, if money is an issue, put it off and save the pennies until you can do it correctly.

A newly milled head with larger valves will not show the performance one is looking for if the cam is mediocre.

My Two Cents!

tapkaJohnD Avatar
tapkaJohnD John Davies
Lancaster, Lancashire, UK   GBR
Richard,

You, "did measure the chamber volume after the head was skimmed - roughly 35cc with a chamber height of roughly 11.5mm".

How 'roughly' is roughly? Roughly isn't good enough. The chamber should be within 0,5cc of each other.

And 35cc? Did you calculate your CR?

CR = (Chamber Volume) / (Chamber volume + Stroke Volume)
Roughly! There are other volumes to be included! See my article "Raising the Compression Ratio" at http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/7551-how-to-raise-the-compression-ratio-safely-and-effectively/

So your CR = 35/35+333 = 9.5. But only roughly!

AND, do you understand why double springs?
Two springs in parallel, not in series, have a stiffness that is the sum of the individual values, so stiffer than just one, but they are different (look at them, clamp them in a vice).
And they will resonate at a much higher frequency than either alone (the formula is complex) so valve bounce at high revs is less likely.
That's why double springs.

Good luck!
John

ras111 Avatar
ras111 Gold Member Richard Singerman
Dollard des Ormeaux, QC, Canada   CAN
John,

I am pretty confident in the measurements - measured twice. In fact, went out to get some syringes to be more accurate - used a piece of plexiglass on top in order to see exactly when full. Of course done on my workbench at home...so always potential for slight differences....but I believe it is very close. Your article is great - breaks it down well.

I had my original head, which I swapped out 6 years ago when I wanted to get the car back on the road after 20+ years in storage. I know it needed a valve job, so opted to put on another head that was ready to go! Recently decided to get my original head cleaned up, and instead of stock valves, decided to go slightly larger. Also had the head skimmed a bit, but nothing radical. I am not looking to race - just everyday (weekend really) driving, but figured once I was doing the head work I may as well do some minor upgrades.

In terms of double springs, is there a reason why some cars had them and others didn't? I know my car had single springs, and can put those back on if necessary, but decided to go with the double springs after reading some comments from others. Is there any reason NOT to used the double springs?

As for the cam and followers, I have the Canley 25/65 camshaft and was planning on installing it. Pulled my back and working in my garage bending over is a bit of struggle, which I why I decided to swap the head only right now - cam will have to wait till next winter. The manual says to replace the followers if any pitting - some of mine do have some pitting on the bottom while others are perfectly smooth. I have a new set of followers I can install, but comments are to leave existing ones since they are mated to the existing cam.....even if there is some pitting. Interested in your thoughts.

Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, BC, Canada   CAN
I see no good reason not to fit double valve springs, even if you are not about to run at high rpm.

When my engine was rebuilt I fitted single springs with a Fast Road 83 type Cam the springs were from the same supplier as the Cam and deemed suitable. But after a short period of time, one spring broke and a valve dropped :-(

When the engine was again rebuilt Euro stock double valve springs were fitted as insurance against it happening again.

Seat pressures were about the same and binding was not an issue.

If you fit a new cam next winter, you will need to fit new cam followers. If you fit new followers now you will STILL have to change them next winter if you fit the cam.

What brand head gasket are you using? I have had problems with Felpro and now use Payen or NoS copper if I can get them.

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