TRExp

TR2 & TR3 Forum

overheating tr3 HELP

Moss Motors
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor

Geo Hahn Avatar
Mt Lemmon, AZ, USA   USA
I made mine out of (sacrificial) wood:



Maybe it helps, certainly can't hurt. 107° here today.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
John Wynd Avatar
Danville, KY, USA   USA
Nice, how is it attached? Can’t tell from the pic

brucejon Avatar
brucejon Gold Member Bruce Jones
Santa Cruz, CA, USA   USA
1962 Triumph TR3B
1963 Triumph TR3B "Tupperware TR3"
1969 Triumph Spitfire MkIII
1972 Triumph TR6
Hey, would you consider posting a picture of it flat that those interested might use to create our own template?



62 TR3B (red), 62 TR3B project, 72 TR6, 69 Mk3 Spitfire EU setup
https://spitfiremk3.wordpress.com

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
John Wynd Avatar
Danville, KY, USA   USA
Attached you will find a rough dimensioned sketch and a pic of the original cardboard “prototype “ laid flat.
I finally made it out out 1/8” thick ABS which is easily obtainable on Amazon and used my heat gun to make the folds


Attachments:
0C15F492-7D75-401F-9DF9-691770F74DD8.jpeg    42.2 KB
0C15F492-7D75-401F-9DF9-691770F74DD8.jpeg

27956D55-657B-450F-A7E2-81AAE5FC8FF0.jpeg    73.6 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
The old water pumps had a gold anodized aluminum impeller. Looks like brass but is actually aluminum. They are also a press fit on the shaft, not soldered as someone mentioned. Could be brass, but I've never heard of that before. If your problem is new, it is most likely not the water pump. The only advice I can give on water pumps is the TR spec for end clearance of the impeller to the inside of the housing is far too great to allow the pump to work well at idling speeds and reduces efficiency at high rpm as well. You can measure the end clearance with a bit of plumbers putty. To be efficient the end clearance should be no more than 15 thousands of an inch rather than the 75 thou spec. At 75 thou the pump simply won't pump water at idling speed and the only flow is via thermosyphoning. I know this because I tested it with the water pump off the car. Even with cold water and no anti-freeze, the pump would not pump at low rpm without the end clearance adjusted. Adjusting the clearance improved flow by several fold at low rpm. I believe the generous end clearance was most likely specified to account for water pump bearing wear so the impeller wouldn't contact the housing, but other manufacturers didn't seem to have the same concern, so the clearance could have just been a typo. Maybe they really meant 7.5 thou! On the old pumps with the gold anodized impeller, the impeller could be moved on the shaft to adjust the end clearance. Not that it was intended for adjustment, just that it could be done. On the County brand pump I used to replace the original, the impeller could not be moved easily so I fitted a spacer inside the housing to remove the excessive clearance that worked well in combination with the gasket. I posted a picture showing the spacer fitted inside the housing. Ignore the brass tap off the side of the housing. I also diverted flow to the rear drain petcock but it takes a back pressure plate (see the other pic) to create enough back pressure to have flow through the tap off. That modification diverted about 1/5 of the flow to the rear at the base of #4 liner. The result is 10 degrees F cooler at the rear of the engine than before the mod. I may have posted these pictures here before, but if anyone new is interested in the modification, it works. The back pressure plate with the nozzle and the flow 'calibration' holes is 1/8" aluminum and does cause the water pump pulley to be offset slightly, but with modern belts, they still last forever and it's not enough of an offset to stress bearings. Fred
PS. Also, in my testing, if you have a heater, valve it out in the summer. Unless the heater fan is on, engine cooling is worse having the coolant recirculate through the heater matrix.

In reply to # 1539723 by thegstrom 60 tr3. started boiling over a few weeks ago. I have had radiator out year ago and serviced at local good radiator shop. this week, new thermostat. and yesterday took out water pump to replace but the one I had in the car looks perfect. { brass blades} , then flushed the heck out of it.
drove today. boiled over again. about 87 degrees.outside used to drive regularly in summer. now I don't know what is happening.

anyone with any suggestions. has anyone heard of water pump not working when it gets hot. I had my pump in my hand and pulley shaft appeared firmly attached to pump blades . I could not twist the blades without moving pulley shaft. also pin that holds pulley is fine.


help!!!


Attachments:
Spacer to reduce end clearance from 80 thou to 7 thou with County brand pump.JPG    25.5 KB
Spacer to reduce end clearance from 80 thou to 7 thou with County brand pump.JPG

Tap-off from pump housing to divert some flow to rear petcock .jpg    30.9 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Back pressure and nozzle plate to divert some flow to rear petcock .jpg    15.4 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Connection from pump housing to rear petcock.jpg    26.4 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
All of my original impellers have been brass, I've never seen one in anodized aluminum.

The factory workshop manual specifies solder as John mentioned, but only for water sealing. It also specifies to replace the impeller if the press fit is lost.

And, while I haven't checked the clearance, my pumps do move some coolant at idle. You can see this for yourself easily enough, just start the engine with the thermostat housing open.

In driveway tests, the temp gauge drops visibly once the electric fan comes on. If I leave it on (override the thermostatic control), the coolant thermostat will close to keep the engine warm.

So pretty clearly there is enough coolant flow to cover the idle condition (where relatively little heat is generated, compared to producing power). The problem (at idle anyway) is lack of air flow.

Not really relevant, but one of my old tractors has no water pump at all, relies entirely on thermo siphon, and it remains cool at up to about 30 HP at the flywheel.
The other uses a pump almost identical to the Tr3, and has no problem staying cool at idle.



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L Once and future daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-06-13 10:25 AM by TR3driver.

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
And I've never seen brass, but no matter. If your pump is pumping at idle, then your impeller end clearance is definitely less than 30 thou and probably smaller. That's a good thing. Not many people are aware of the end clearance issue. Although I discovered it independently, I'm not the first to figure it out. Fred

In reply to # 1540237 by TR3driver All of my original impellers have been brass, I've never seen one in anodized aluminum.

The factory workshop manual specifies solder as John mentioned, but only for water sealing. It also specifies to replace the impeller if the press fit is lost.

And, while I haven't checked the clearance, my pumps do move some coolant at idle. You can see this for yourself easily enough, just start the engine with the thermostat housing open.

In driveway tests, the temp gauge drops visibly once the electric fan comes on. If I leave it on (override the thermostatic control), the coolant thermostat will close to keep the engine warm.

So pretty clearly there is enough coolant flow to covet the idle condition (where relatively little heat is generated, compared to producing power). The problem (at idle anyway) is lack of air flow.

Not really relevant, but one of my old tractors has no water pump at all, relies entirely on thermo siphon, and it remains cool at up to about 30 HP at the flywheel.
The other uses a pump almost identical to the Tr3, and has no problem staying cool at idle.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
An electric fan will enhance cooling no matter if the engine is thermosyphoning or whether it has pumped flow. In the case of thermosyphoning it will increase coolant flow as well. The Morgan rad is about 1/3 smaller than the TR rad and the fan is attached to the water pump but located a distance back from it due to the cross frame for the front suspension. Even so, once I got the pump pumping like it should, the engine now does not overheat. And it can get quite hot in southern Ontario. Later Morgans had a smaller rad top tank and seem to require a catch can to account for the thermal expansion, but my old radiator works fine without a catch can or an electric fan. Fred

In reply to # 1540237 by TR3driver All of my original impellers have been brass, I've never seen one in anodized aluminum.

The factory workshop manual specifies solder as John mentioned, but only for water sealing. It also specifies to replace the impeller if the press fit is lost.

And, while I haven't checked the clearance, my pumps do move some coolant at idle. You can see this for yourself easily enough, just start the engine with the thermostat housing open.

In driveway tests, the temp gauge drops visibly once the electric fan comes on. If I leave it on (override the thermostatic control), the coolant thermostat will close to keep the engine warm.

So pretty clearly there is enough coolant flow to covet the idle condition (where relatively little heat is generated, compared to producing power). The problem (at idle anyway) is lack of air flow.

Not really relevant, but one of my old tractors has no water pump at all, relies entirely on thermo siphon, and it remains cool at up to about 30 HP at the flywheel.
The other uses a pump almost identical to the Tr3, and has no problem staying cool at idle.

Fred Winterburn Avatar
Ripley, ON, Canada   CAN
I stand corrected. I dug out my old water pump and the impeller is indeed brass or bronze. There are some stains on the dull brass that looked to me like underlying aluminum which is what fooled me years ago. I scraped it with a knife blade just now hoping to prove I was right, but I proved myself wrong. Randall is correct. Fred

In reply to # 1540243 by Fred Winterburn And I've never seen brass, but no matter. If your pump is pumping at idle, then your impeller end clearance is definitely less than 30 thou and probably smaller. That's a good thing. Not many people are aware of the end clearance issue. Although I discovered it independently, I'm not the first to figure it out. Fred

In reply to # 1540237 by TR3driver All of my original impellers have been brass, I've never seen one in anodized aluminum.

The factory workshop manual specifies solder as John mentioned, but only for water sealing. It also specifies to replace the impeller if the press fit is lost.

And, while I haven't checked the clearance, my pumps do move some coolant at idle. You can see this for yourself easily enough, just start the engine with the thermostat housing open.

In driveway tests, the temp gauge drops visibly once the electric fan comes on. If I leave it on (override the thermostatic control), the coolant thermostat will close to keep the engine warm.

So pretty clearly there is enough coolant flow to covet the idle condition (where relatively little heat is generated, compared to producing power). The problem (at idle anyway) is lack of air flow.

Not really relevant, but one of my old tractors has no water pump at all, relies entirely on thermo siphon, and it remains cool at up to about 30 HP at the flywheel.
The other uses a pump almost identical to the Tr3, and has no problem staying cool at idle.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
TR4RoadRacer Avatar
TR4RoadRacer Neil Morrison
Darlington, PA, USA   USA
1958 Triumph TR3A "Rusty"
1962 Triumph TR4 "Rumph"
1962 Vespa VNB 125 "IJ (Italian Job)"
Your scoop design is very clever. I looks like a version of it could also work on a TR4.

How is the scoop attached to the TR3?

Do you have any pictures of the attachment method?

thegstrom Todd Hegstrom
Grand Junction, USA   USA
David,John,Randall. Thank you for your input The head gasket idea and your descriptions seem to fit best with my car symptoms. I haven’t tested yet but this makes the most sense. I will give feedback when I get it fixed. Really appreciate the help !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-06-13 07:30 AM by thegstrom.

John Wynd Avatar
Danville, KY, USA   USA
The TR3 scoop is held in place by folding the two side flaps in towards the center then hooking the narrow flap into the tub that holds the radiator then allowing (pulling) the side flaps back perpendicular . The whole thing kinda snaps into place & is a snug fit. It doesn’t rattle and stays put going down the road ,
The original cardboard prototype was held in place with refrigeration tape but the ABS model is a fairly simple snap fit

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

To add your reply, or post your own questions




Registration is FREE and takes less than a minute!


Having trouble posting or changing forum settings?
Read the Forum Help (FAQ) or contact the webmaster