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Lifter failure?

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bowen6951 Avatar
bowen6951 Gold Member rob bowen
Fontana, CA, USA   USA
Hi Darrell,
looks like somebody got there moneys worth out of those bearings. FWIW with the crap that may have been floating around that you don't see is it really worth a couple hundred bucks to take a chance on the old parts. I was always taught that if you take it apart replace everything you can and start a fresh,that way you don't have an engine with xxx miles on the bearings, zzz miles on the rings and etc.. You'll know it all starts again now. My $.02. Thanks, Rob

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darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
Got my headers back from having the ceramic coating redone, and the block is stripped down and cleaned up, ready to go to the machine shop.



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA


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Darth V8R Avatar
Darth V8R Vance Navarrette
Beaverton, OR, USA   USA
1980 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
In reply to # 1495290 by darrellwalker Got my headers back from having the ceramic coating redone, and the block is stripped down and cleaned up, ready to go to the machine shop.

Darrell:

Sha-zam! Tri-y headers. Great choice for the street. Combined with that cam you will have a sweet setup. Torque monster. cool smiley

OK, so I am mystified. What started out as a cam replacement is turning into an all out rebuild. I certainly get the cam swap, and the teardown looking for damage, but now it is going to the machine shop. You mentioned the cam bearings, is that the reason? What else are you doing? Boring it out to 3.9? Stroking to 5.0? Supercharger? Nitrous? Nitromethane? spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

I must admit, between you and Todd I feel like a real girly-man. Todd builds ICMBs and disguises them as wedges.

Vance



1980 Platinum Metallic TR8, navy blue interior
Bare metal respray, Crower cam, raised compression
ported heads, modified Zenith carbs, 0.060" overbore

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darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
In reply to # 1495302 by Darth V8R OK, so I am mystified. What started out as a cam replacement is turning into an all out rebuild. I certainly get the cam swap, and the teardown looking for damage, but now it is going to the machine shop. You mentioned the cam bearings, is that the reason? What else are you doing? Boring it out to 3.9? Stroking to 5.0? Supercharger? Nitrous? Nitromethane? spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

Hi Vance,

Nothing so exotic! Though I have to admit that I have measured a bit to see if a Vortech supercharger would fit in the area where the A/C compressor used to be. smiling smiley

As I got deeper into the engine, I found some evidence of wear, probably caused by either the initial problem (the spacer from the valve cover gasket), or the subsequent destruction of the lifter and cam lobe. While I could have just replaced the cam and called it good, I decided to take the safe route and fully disassemble and clean things.

The trip to the machine shop is to have the cylinders honed (decided to not try that myself), install new cam bearings (ditto), and maybe clean the block. Though it is quite clean, I will see their thoughts on pulling the oil gallery plugs to make sure they are clean. I'm also going to have them check out the crank. I think it is OK, it mic'ed out OK before, and still checks out (though I would never bet anything on my ability to read a micrometer).

So I'll have new main and rod bearings, new rings, new cam, lifters and timing chain/gear.

-Darrell



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

Darth V8R Avatar
Darth V8R Vance Navarrette
Beaverton, OR, USA   USA
1980 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
In reply to # 1495306 by darrellwalker
As I got deeper into the engine, I found some evidence of wear, probably caused by either the initial problem (the spacer from the valve cover gasket), or the subsequent destruction of the lifter and cam lobe. While I could have just replaced the cam and called it good, I decided to take the safe route and fully disassemble and clean things.

The trip to the machine shop is to have the cylinders honed (decided to not try that myself), install new cam bearings (ditto), and maybe clean the block. Though it is quite clean, I will see their thoughts on pulling the oil gallery plugs to make sure they are clean. I'm also going to have them check out the crank. I think it is OK, it mic'ed out OK before, and still checks out (though I would never bet anything on my ability to read a micrometer).

So I'll have new main and rod bearings, new rings, new cam, lifters and timing chain/gear.

-Darrell

Darrell -

Saaaay... Do I see top hat sleeves in that block?

Vance



1980 Platinum Metallic TR8, navy blue interior
Bare metal respray, Crower cam, raised compression
ported heads, modified Zenith carbs, 0.060" overbore

darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
In reply to # 1495334 by Darth V8R Darrell -

Saaaay... Do I see top hat sleeves in that block?

Vance

No, I think you are just seeing the marks from the head gasket.



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA


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POW Peter Wirth
HEBRON, NH - New Hampshire, USA   USA
When the wrenches start a spinnin' it's hard to stop them. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

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darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
In reply to # 1495363 by POW When the wrenches start a spinnin' it's hard to stop them. spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

You got that right. I could tell the story how a leaking brake master cylinder lead to a frame off restoration on my 66 TR4A....



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
Block and crank dropped off at the machine shop They felt it would be a good idea to grind the crank. Will be ready in about a week. Oh well, gives me time to clean up all of the other parts!



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

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darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
It has been a while since I posted an update. Just got the crank and block back from the machine shop. Ordered new main and rod bearings which should arrive soon, and I can start putting it back together!



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
Well, things were going along really well, got the block and crank cleaned, installed the new cam, installed the crank, new rings on the pistons and got them installed.

Then I went to install the heads. All was going well as I was torquing it down, was on the last setting (70 ft-lbs), should have been a small rotation from the previous value, but one of the studs appears to have started to strip out.

So I have a Time-sert kit on order to fix that hole.

In the mean time, I can work out my preloads.



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

Darth V8R Avatar
Darth V8R Vance Navarrette
Beaverton, OR, USA   USA
1980 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
In reply to # 1500501 by darrellwalker Well, things were going along really well, got the block and crank cleaned, installed the new cam, installed the crank, new rings on the pistons and got them installed.

Then I went to install the heads. All was going well as I was torquing it down, was on the last setting (70 lb-ft), should have been a small rotation from the previous value, but one of the studs appears to have started to strip out.

So I have a Time-sert kit on order to fix that hole.

In the mean time, I can work out my preloads.

Darrell:

I was very worried about that when I reassembled my motor. Repairing the threads is not a big deal, but it frustrating and makes me feel like I don't know what I am doing (OK, I really don't know what I am doing, so that part is correct). eye rolling smiley

Since my DPO had installed a stud kit, and they were all the wrong length (he trimmed them with an angle grinder to get them to fit) I replaced all the head fasteners with ARP bolts, 1/4" longer than the original fasteners. Turns out that the threaded holes in the block are deep enough to support longer fasteners, so there is 1/4" more thread area engaging the block, and hopefully reducing the likelihood of a stripped hole. I did a lot of measuring to convince myself that the fasteners would not bottom out when they were installed. So far, so good.

Vance



1980 Platinum Metallic TR8, navy blue interior
Bare metal respray, Crower cam, raised compression
ported heads, modified Zenith carbs, 0.060" overbore

darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
In reply to # 1500540 by Darth V8R I was very worried about that when I reassembled my motor. Repairing the threads is not a big deal, but it frustrating and makes me feel like I don't know what I am doing (OK, I really don't know what I am doing, so that part is correct). eye rolling smiley

Since my DPO had installed a stud kit, and they were all the wrong length (he trimmed them with an angle grinder to get them to fit) I replaced all the head fasteners with ARP bolts, 1/4" longer than the original fasteners. Turns out that the threaded holes in the block are deep enough to support longer fasteners, so there is 1/4" more thread area engaging the block, and hopefully reducing the likelihood of a stripped hole. I did a lot of measuring to convince myself that the fasteners would not bottom out when they were installed. So far, so good.

I'm pretty sure I have the right ARP studs. That one hole was a bit tight going in. There wasn't any debris in there, but I suspect the threads must have been starting to distort. It is a sick feeling when you feel it start to give way. Plus I hate undoing/redoing things, but that's the breaks. Good to know that the holes are a bit deeper, so that I can use an insert that will include all of the threads.



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA

darrellwalker Darrell Walker
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
1966 Triumph TR4A "Christy"
1981 Triumph TR8 "Kate"
Despite the setback with the head stud, I'm making good progress getting the engine back together. Though now I have to pull the head and fix the hole before I can go much further.

I'm using a Time-set kit. They have a special head bolt kit, but it is about $500, vs $100 for the regular kit. The difference is a jig to align the hole and make sure it is perpendicular. Since I can't get the block onto my drill press, I started making my own jig. A $25 scrap of aluminum plate from the hardware store was drilled to match the holes in the head for three studs (the one I'm fixing in the middle, and one on each side). I used the head on the plate to start the holes, then once the centers were marked, I used the drill press to finish them.

Once I get the Time-sert kit, I'll enlarge the center hole to match the drill in the kit, that should help keep the hole aligned and perpendicular. It is still going to be a bit nerve wracking to drill the block, however!



Darrell Walker
66 TR4A IRS-SC CTC67956L
81 TR8 SATPZ458XBA406206
Vancouver, WA, USA


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POW Peter Wirth
HEBRON, NH - New Hampshire, USA   USA
In reply to # 1500555 by darrellwalker ... Good to know that the holes are a bit deeper, so that I can use an insert that will include all of the threads.

How long are the thread inserts? Are they long enough to reach those previously unused thread at the bottom of the stripped hole and are you planning on bolts that are long enough to do that, or are you planning on cleaning up the whole hole and using an insert that will reach the bottom? The reason I ask is that if you are planning to butt up against those unused threads with an insert or even if you are planning on using a shorter insert but still utilize those threads with a longer bolt it is highly unlikely that the insert threads will transition perfectly with those at the bottom of the hole. I think you'll end up with a head bolt that screws in well until the existing threads are encountered where the bold will bind and start to strip out the bottom threads.

Maybe this is not your plan at all, just thought I'd mention these concerns. - Pete

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