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What is wrong with Wishbone Classics?

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Ilkley, Yorkshire, UK   GBR
1970 Triumph TR6 "The Ornament"
I have a 1970 TR6 fully restored and waiting for an engine. In August 2015 I ordered a billet steel crankshaft from Wisbone Classics as I wanted a basis for building a 2.7 ltr 200 bhp engine. A reply from Wishbone Classics was to have a phone conversation as to what I wanted to do. This conversation took place and basically Wishbone Classics could build me an engine second to non. I gave it some thought and looked over a specification for a 190 to 200 bhp street engine and I took the plunge. (this was to be the treat for my self before I retire).
It is now coming up to 3 years and no engine. The last contact was a brief email last July from Kai Radicke saying he would be in touch the following week with a progress report.
No such luck. Since then continued emails have gone unanswered (probably set up as junk email now) and continual weekly messages left on the answering machine go unanswered (probably deleted on hearing my voice). I paid for the crankshaft and two thirds toward the engine build totalling $17000 dollars the reminder to pay for shipping etc.
I have read a number of threads within forums on Wishbone Classics, some say they are brilliant and you cannot go wrong with them. All I will say is I have given them the oppertunity to talk and explain their woeful failure to produce the goods, refund my money etc. They choose the cowards way and not man up and talk and do the right thing. This leaves me regarding them as dishonest and fraudulent.
I look forward to reading some more up to date dealing with Wishbone classics. One thing that does hit me is that, dishonesty, cheating and fraud are in Wishbone Classics DNA by the bucket load now.
I would be most grateful for any advice on what I may be able to do as I am in the UK.

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cduckworth Avatar
cduckworth Charlie Duckworth
Omaha, NE, USA   USA
One suggestion is to go to the web site for the Attorney General in the state they do business in with your documentation and their lack of response and ask them for help. There's no cost other than your time. Interesting they fail to provide an address on their web site where they are located. I've had to to this with a problem I had with a company here and got results. Good luck.

brucejon Avatar
brucejon Gold Member Bruce Jones
Santa Cruz, CA, USA   USA
1960 Triumph TR3A
1963 Triumph TR3B "Tupperware TR3"
1969 Triumph Spitfire MkIII
1972 Triumph TR6
17,000 for a street engine?



60 TR3A (red), 62 TR3B project, 72 TR6, 69 Mk3 Spitfire EU setup
https://spitfiremk3.wordpress.com

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smaceng Avatar
smaceng Scott Macdonald
Martinez, CA, USA   USA
Doing a search, I came up with the following address:
Wishbone Classics
3411 Warners Rd.
Camillus, NY 13031
215 945-7520


Looking up on Zillow, the address given by BBB appears to be a single family residence.

Might check to see if there is a business license.

Scott in CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-06-11 11:08 AM by smaceng.

YankeeTR5 Dan M
Seattle, WA, USA   USA
I'd guess a 1/3 of that cost was for the crankshaft. Just a guess. And the total probably looks less as Graham probably converts to Pounds. Plus, that's a lot of engine with lots of hand time on it, much of it precision machining.

Sorry to hear of the problem Graham. Charlie's advice is sound. Given the noise, if not furor, on the various boards about Kai and Wishbone Classics, you will not be the first the Attorney's General will have heard. I'd also contact the states Better Business Bureau to lodge a complaint (again, you probably won't be first). They may be able to offer some quick advice or recommend an attorney to pursue some type of civil action. The $amount is significant - into felony fraud which is serious from a criminal perspective and plays into a civil action as well. The AG would be more focused on the criminal and harm done "in their state" or large financial crimes (good for headlines) but if enough complaints come in against a person/business they do investigate. If you've paid using a credit card, they may be able to help as well. However if work, while really slow, has been taking place, then none of the criminal aspect apply and clawing money back via credit card company is less likely as well.

In the US there are two courts for civil claims. Small claims court, with each state setting the $ amount that can be sought (most states are between $5-10K). No attorney needed, although can be represented by one. Basically both parties play out their story in front of a judge and the determination is made. Collecting can then be an issue. The regular civil court is for larger claims and lawyers fees will eat one alive here in the states (although to be fair, in my business dealings with British attorneys, they do more than hold their own). Normally, if a case gets to a court you're in for $10K or more. Most things get settled as a result. Again, getting a judgement and getting paid are two different things (it can be a long process of using the legal process to force people to pay as there is no threat of jail)

In the end its up to you what you want to pursue. Staying in touch vs legal pressure is always touchy in cases of personal service.

Its unfortunate you're in this mess. If this helps: Three years seems like a long time, but I just waited 22 months to get a cylinder head thru a shop. On a build like yours, if done correctly (and wow, nice retirement gift!) means lots of precision work which in my experience really slows things down thru a shop. Lead time on the crank can take time as well. I'm not suggesting either of these things are true, but they could be based on my experience (not with WBC) and WBC just doesn't have anything to update. He may not want to reveal just how much is out of his control vis a vis machining etc. A local (internationally known with very high end, vintage stuff sent to him from all over) Italian car shop ran into this. Lead time thru the best machine shop became so long it put him in an awkward place - I heard, from 15 feet away, the screaming voice of a pissed off Ferrari owner thru a handset (not speaker) and there was nothing the shop owner could do as the parts were still in the same stage they were the last time the guy called up to scream (I'm not insinuating you are like this person at all, I only raise it as an example of what the engine builder (assembler basically) may be going thru. Hopefully you'll get a call or email with an update that says its crated and on its way to you.

Fogspawn, CA, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Machine"
frauds big and small. hoping I never have to report one. we do things by honor
here... and though veering to off topic... it is just another in the riverbed
this country seems to fill these days...
w

Ilkley, Yorkshire, UK   GBR
1970 Triumph TR6 "The Ornament"
Charlie, thanks for that I will look into that.

Scott, thanks you have confirmed the address, it is the same as the address on the sales quote I have for the engine and where the account is registered to when I made payments. I have seen over the last couple of years that a large building has appeared behind the house when viewing Google earth, that is probably where my money went.

Bruce, actually the full cost is $18096 for the engine build plus $4495 for the billet steel crankshaft already paid for plus shipping to the uk and import duties and taxes.
This was to be a treat for myself ready for retirement. It was supposed to be an all steel 2.7 ltr 200 bhp 195 ft lbs engine running EFI. I knew it would be expensive, I wasn't expecting to be ripped off by what I thought was a quality company selling quality parts.

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brucejon Avatar
brucejon Gold Member Bruce Jones
Santa Cruz, CA, USA   USA
1960 Triumph TR3A
1963 Triumph TR3B "Tupperware TR3"
1969 Triumph Spitfire MkIII
1972 Triumph TR6
I have no experience with engines like that. Quite a treat! I hope it will work out for you. Will you be in their neighborhood? Dont know if you have travel plans over here. A personal visit can sometimes work wonders if it is not a bad actor you are working with.



60 TR3A (red), 62 TR3B project, 72 TR6, 69 Mk3 Spitfire EU setup
https://spitfiremk3.wordpress.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-06-11 11:57 AM by brucejon.

Killick Avatar
Killick Mark A
Norwich, CT, USA   USA
That town is very close to an account I have in Auburn NY which I go to every 6 weeks or so. I'd be more than happy to 'stop by' just to see if they are still there, what type off residence etc. if you'd like. Shoot me a PM if you'd like to discuss Graham.

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Fogspawn, CA, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Machine"
In 1990 there was a bagpipe maker in a famous city in Scotland. We made a contract, I gave him hefty deposit,
over 18 months no assurances, not a wit of performance... I combined a holiday with wife...visit UK, but made
a stop to his shop in business hour, regretting we could not apparently do business... and walked short distance to
bank and cashed his check... I flew from SF to Scotland to take care of the matter...lucked out maybe...
for this situation I'd visit with some backup...
THissituation is not unknown for us these forums... this is too large a loss to take...Attorney General all that,
yeah... either way you'll probably have no source from which to collect.
sorry, but that is my view... and I can never engage wishbone classics, sounding sogood on sites and posts...
caution is the watchword i'm thinking...
w

Fogspawn, CA, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Machine"
to a point i agree, but here the man has nothing but air if that from the bone...
when I was in the real bizness world... the rest of the banana was enough motivation...
you focus, you deliver... something nefarious at foot here..

Ilkley, Yorkshire, UK   GBR
1970 Triumph TR6 "The Ornament"
Thanks so far for the words of wisdom. I have submitted a complaint to the BBB, interesting rating and reaction from WBC.

Killick Avatar
Killick Mark A
Norwich, CT, USA   USA
In reply to # 1539994 by Graham Hunter Thanks so far for the words of wisdom. I have submitted a complaint to the BBB, interesting rating and reaction from WBC.

Boy I'll say, an F yikes!

Triumphgt6er Avatar
Triumphgt6er Jim Snell
Cave Creek, AZ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Bubbles"
If you search triumphexperience and the 6-pack website you'll find many examples of difficult dealings. Here's a sample....what a shame.

https://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?2,1368553

Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, BC, Canada   CAN
Strange how often these stories come up. Some years back I was reading much the same stuff about PRI and others that I could name. Egos always seem to be a factor.

I can well understand how one can get cought between a customer and a supplier, Been there, done that.
But this 'seems' to have gone to a whole different level.

I am not sure I would have handed over that sort of money without a contract. Dealing overseas complicates the issue.

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