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40 yo starter, rebuild or replace

Moss Motors
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hounut Mike L
AB, Canada   CAN
1974 Triumph TR6 "Tweety"
I had mine rebuilt by a local shop. When I turned it over the first time, I wondered if someone had removed the spark plugs. It spins like crazy, and starts a lot faster than it used to. I think if you are going to compare something that is old and worn out, the new improved version is always going to look better, but a good version of the worn out part will look a lot better too. My guy did say he had trouble getting parts, but he got them inside of a week.

Mike

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hogan1945 Avatar
hogan1945 Silver Member Douglas F
Woodbury, MN, USA   USA
1968 Pontiac GTO "Tempest"
1976 Triumph TR6
1976 Triumph TR6
1976 Triumph TR6    & more
What was the cost to rebuild? If I may ask.
Thank you

titanic Berry P
Albany, OR, USA   USA
Steve-I don't understand the bushing availabilty problem, they seem to be available from the "big 3". I have the front top hat bushing used on the com. end of the late starter and the triangular brushes, if you are interested. The driving end oilliter bush is cylindrical and might be available from auto parts or industrial suppliers. Most likely, the contacts in sol. are the problem.
Berry

In reply to # 1264822 by Rex A Lott I went looking for a rebuild kit but there is none. So I guess I'll wing it. What material do I use for bushings?

SAE 841—Also called Oilite®, this porous material is impregnated with roughly 19% SAE 30 oil. The oil reduces wear as well as required maintenance.
Graphite SAE 841—This porous material is impregnated with a graphite-based material, which provides low-friction dry lubrication in a wide range of temperatures.
SAE 863—Also called Super Oilite®, this material is similar to SAE 841, but contains more iron for greater strength. Note: Color is silver because of the iron.
Alloy 932—Also known as SAE 660, this nonporous, cast material makes hard, strong, and abrasion-resistant bearings with excellent resistance to shock loads (suddenly applied loads) and wear.
Alloy 954—This nonporous, cast material is harder, stronger, and withstands an even wider temperature range than Alloy 932.


Sadly there are references to what I need like this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lucas-pre-engaged-starter-repair-overhaul/dp/B009UVXCFK
and this
http://trf.zeni.net/TR6greenbook/14.php?s_wt=1600&s_ht=900

but no parts are in stock. I'll have to order ah la carte' from McMaster Carr.

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hounut Mike L
AB, Canada   CAN
1974 Triumph TR6 "Tweety"
Douglas,
Sorry I don't remember. I trust this guy, he's a neighbor. He showed up at my door at 9:00 pm. so I could have the starter for the weekend. He told me to just come around to the shop next week some time to settle up. I'm usually pretty close with my cash, but in this case I didn't even ask for a price. It was very reasonable as I recall though.

Mike

Rex A Lott Avatar
Rex A Lott Steve Kincaid
Newcastle, WA, USA   USA
1976 Triumph TR6 "Trix"
In reply to # 1264997 by titanic Steve-I don't understand the bushing availabilty problem,

Yes, bushings are available... in four different types of bronze. Which one should I order? 841, 863, 932, or 954?

ed.h Ed Hollingsworth
Omaha, NE, USA   USA
It's a good application for Oilite.

Ed

hogan1945 Avatar
hogan1945 Silver Member Douglas F
Woodbury, MN, USA   USA
1968 Pontiac GTO "Tempest"
1976 Triumph TR6
1976 Triumph TR6
1976 Triumph TR6    & more
Mike, it is great to have people like that you can trust to do a great job. Their hard to find,but when you do, like you have, it makes auto repairs so much more enjoyable.
Good Luck

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hounut Mike L
AB, Canada   CAN
1974 Triumph TR6 "Tweety"
I know what you mean. I do almost everything myself because I keep getting disappointed by the "professionals".

Mike

titanic Berry P
Albany, OR, USA   USA
I would think one of the first 3 oilite, probably not that critical. It just seems odd that TRF,Moss, and VB don't stock the bushings.
Berry

In reply to # 1265081 by Rex A Lott
In reply to # 1264997 by titanic Steve-I don't understand the bushing availabilty problem,

Yes, bushings are available... in four different types of bronze. Which one should I order? 841, 863, 932, or 954?

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Rex A Lott Avatar
Rex A Lott Steve Kincaid
Newcastle, WA, USA   USA
1976 Triumph TR6 "Trix"
In reply to # 1265217 by titanic I would think one of the first 3 oilite, probably not that critical. It just seems odd that TRF,Moss, and VB don't stock the bushings.
Berry

All of these retailers show these parts in their catalogs but there is no stock on hand.
Example: http://trf.zeni.net/TR6greenbook/14.php

I suppose most owners simply buy a new starter. Its basic supply and demand. There are not too many fools like me rebuilding a starter that you can upgrade for $180.

tirebiter Jeff Garber
Dighton, MA, USA   USA
I'm still wondering if anyone here has actually spun a motor over with the spark plugs removed just to see how fast the starter can make it go. How many RPM ?

Seems to me the original direct drive style starter motors in good condition, made them spin faster than the gear reduction style does. If so, isn't that better ?

Rex A Lott Avatar
Rex A Lott Steve Kincaid
Newcastle, WA, USA   USA
1976 Triumph TR6 "Trix"
In reply to # 1266647 by tirebiter I'm still wondering if anyone here has actually spun a motor over with the spark plugs removed just to see how fast the starter can make it go. How many RPM ?

Seems to me the original direct drive style starter motors in good condition, made them spin faster than the gear reduction style does. If so, isn't that better ?

I don't have a measured answer to your question but as I understand it, the term "gear reduction starter" is misleading. As I understand it, the gear reduction starter has a core electric motor that turns several times faster than a "direct drive" starter. Thus it provides more torque and more speed with a smaller package. So I believe a gear reduction starter turns the car motor faster than the stock starter ever could, even after the gear reduction aspect is factored in.

poolboy Avatar
poolboy Ken D
Sandy Hook, MS, USA   USA
In reply to # 1266647 by tirebiter I'm still wondering if anyone here has actually spun a motor over with the spark plugs removed just to see how fast the starter can make it go. How many RPM ?

Seems to me the original direct drive style starter motors in good condition, made them spin faster than the gear reduction style does. If so, isn't that better ?
Have you seen this ?

tirebiter Jeff Garber
Dighton, MA, USA   USA
Well Ken .. uh yes, I have seen that ... now ! I just watched the Moss video on three different types of starter motor designs. Interesting enough but totally misses the point.

No actual measurement. Simply a statement at the end "the gear reduction gives us more torque and does a better job of turning the engine", but offering no proof of that concept. An actual test run as installed would be very convincing but MOSS only makes a statement. Also some figures based on current (AMPERAGE) draw at no load - not bolted in place - and current (AMPERAGE) draw at normal load - spinning an engine over with the spark plugs in and the ignition disabled - would be another very telling indicator of which starter is "better".

There is probably a very good reason this information is not forthcoming.

Earlier in the video Mr "hands" mentions that higher RPM is like downshifting and revving an engine to get more power. WRONG ! Electric motors develop their maximum torque at stall speed, which is zero RPM. Very unlike car engines, the torque drops as RPMs increase. The gears meshing inside the case of a gear reduction starter, actually steals some of the power as do the extra shaft bushings.

I think as early as the late 60's/early 70's maybe sooner, American built Chrysler automobiles began using the gear reduction starter design. It's not a new concept. I believe it was simply to save weight and make a smaller package. My memory was never that good but I don't recall ever hearing Chrysler make any claims that it developed "more torque" with less electrical draw.

Meanwhile I still am wondering how it is that nobody here has ever looked further into the "more torque" claims or done any actual meaurements. Many folks seem to just go along with the idea that a gear reduction starter is better without any proof beyond "it says so" in the catalog description. Good advertising techniques for sure but no proof is offered to substantiate the claims.

maddmapper Avatar
maddmapper Ken Prentice
Victoria, BC, Canada   CAN
I, for one, have never really given much thought about the "high torque" part. For me, it was more about the wear on the flywheel and secondly (but not too much) weight.

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