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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
Plan C failed. And my chain broke. I'm outta ideas.

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Desert TR Avatar
Desert TR Jim P
Albuquerque, NM, USA   USA
Scott,

I know you're frustrated, but maybe it's best to take a step back. You seem to be fighting both body and frame issues. It might be best to tackle one at a time. I'm guessing you have, but have you checked the frame measurements off the frame and body datum? I've attached the TR4A frame measurements. I realize they are probably different, but you should have the TR6 in the workshop manual. Cut dowel wood rods to the expected dimensions and hot glue them to the frame. A simple straight edge should tell you what is correct and what is off and by how much. It's basically a poor man's frame table. (In attached example 59 = 6.06, 60 = 6.53, 64 = 5.25, 66 = 5.38, 67 = 4.75, 68 = 3.34) Cut and re-weld or bend the frame to the correct dimensions and then attack the body.

Jim


Attachments:
TR4A Frame.pdf    701.3 KB

TR4A Frame 2.pdf    589.3 KB
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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
Hi Jim- Yes, I am, and Thanks! I do have the dimensions for the TR6: However I'd been having trouble figuring out how to lay it out: I like the dowel/hot glue idea: I may give it a try next week... One thing I am noticing is, no matter how little in the way of shims I have in place, there seems to be no real change: I also noticed that the highest point appears to be at the rear (trapezoid) body mount area: when the body is level, and resting, I can push down on the boot area, and the front picks up, pivoting on that area... I am wondering if the body had stressed there previously, and when the frame was restored to proper strength, the adjacent area on the body is still deformed, giving part of the skewedness...

Also, Can anyone give me a couple rough floor to frame dimensions for the TR6- Simply a few base measurements to use as a rough guide? I'd say start with the dimension from the floor to the center of the wheel hub at front & back: (to establish a datum line for me to work from, that wouldn't be affected by tire brand differences in height) then height of the frame at the rearmost lower edge, and a couple along the frame near the trapezoid & square support areas? I can establish whether or not the frame has the proper angle from that info...

Thanks!
Scott

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David DPS Avatar
David DPS David S
Louisville, KY, USA   USA
Paraphrasing Bentley, pg 428:
Using a flat floor
1) In order to set the floor to frame measurements you have to set the frame up on jack stands at each jacking point and remove the road wheels.
2) adjust the jacks until points A are 24.97 inches above the floor (Point A is the front attachment point of the body to the frame where the inner fenders bolt on).
3) adjust the jacks until points F are 24.94 inches above the floor (Point F appears to be the center of the front face of the tube that the rear fender mounts to, using my magnifying glass).

If both E are set and points A are not equal then the frame is twisted.

Using an imaginary line "AA" parallel to the floor:
It starts at the upper intersection of the engine mounting bracket and frame, passes just below the bottom lip of the front differential mount, and then passes 4.81 to 4.94 inches above the bottom edge of the rear frame.
It might be nice if the body is off the frame, but you can work around that with some arithmetic.

point "53" (top of the frame at the flange for the first floor bolt) is 6.06 inches below line AA.
point "54" (top of the frame midway between the second and third floor mounting plates) is 6.53 inches below line AA
Therefore "54" is .47 inches closer to the floor than "53."

Point "58" (top of bracket -not frame - just anterior to the rear differential mount is 5.13" or 5.25 below line AA. Two numbers are given, I presume they are the acceptable range.
That seems to also be the location where most of the upward deflection of the rear frame starts.

Point "59" is the last part of the frame, but the dimension given in to the BOTTOM of the frame is 4.81 to 4.94 inches.

Point "61" is the center of the tube for the bracket on the sides of the rear fender. It is 4.75 inches below line AA


So, suppose we arbitrarily say line AA is 30 inches above the floor. In this instance X = 30
Then point "53" is X - 6.06 = 23.94 inches above the floor.
Then point "54" is X - 6.53 = 23.47 inches above the floor.
Then point "58" is X - 5.13 to X - 5.25 = 24.87 to 24.75 inches above the floor.
Then point "59" is X - 4.81 to X - 4.94 = 25.16 to 25.06 inches above the floor. NOTE: this is the top of the rear frame.

You have to follow that sort of arithmetic because who knows what height you will create for "AA" when you car is on stands.

I am using my magnifying glass on the book and I think point "A" that was to be set 24.97 inches above the floor is also point "47" except that is the top of the front body bracket and "A" is the bottom of the same bracket. "47" is 3.25 to 3.13 " below Line AA. So, if you were to set your jack stands as initially specified Line AA would be 24.97 + (3.25 to 3.13) + thickness of bracket metal. Ignoring the metal thickness, AA would be 28.10 to 28.22 inches above the floor. X would be 28.10 to 28.22.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-24 08:58 AM by David DPS.

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
I know- But ALL my jackstands are LESS than the height required to hit these marks! So I need some empirical data- Height of a correctly assembled TR6 at the hub centers(to establish a new datum), and then height for the same car to several points on the frame, from which distance to said new datum can be extrapolated, and applied to my car... winking smiley Reverse engineering, and easier than translating the manual... And I only need 1. a level floor; 2. measurements given; 3. tape measure...

Thjanks!
Scott

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David DPS Avatar
David DPS David S
Louisville, KY, USA   USA
You cannot rely on hub centers, that height is contingent upon springs, weight on the springs, condition of the bushings...

just set your frame on jack stands, measure the distance at 53 and 54. Adjust until 54 is .47 inches closer to the floor than 53 and do the arithmetic based on whatever height you have. I would suggest that you make 53 a nice round number such as 10 inches to make your calculations even easier.

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
In reply to # 1325252 by David DPS You cannot rely on hub centers, that height is contingent upon springs, weight on the springs, condition of the bushings...

just set your frame on jack stands, measure the distance at 53 and 54. Adjust until 54 is .47 inches closer to the floor than 53 and do the arithmetic based on whatever height you have. I would suggest that you make 53 a nice round number such as 10 inches to make your calculations even easier.

Actually the number I'm really trying to find is how high above the lower side of the frame side channel is the end of the frame rails at the body mount point...

As I say- it is driving me nuts at this point, and wish there was someone competent in TR wizardry in my area who could swing by and lend a hand for this one... But I only know one other person with a TR6 that I have met in person, and I only met him at a car show two years ago!...

Scott

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BL50 Avatar
BL50 Silver Member Brian Leslie
Grosse Pointe, MI, USA   USA
I've got a very nice, original '76 TR6 but am out of town until Tuesday. I'll try to take any measurements that you'd like when I return home - unless someone beats me to it!

Brian

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Desert TR Avatar
Desert TR Jim P
Albuquerque, NM, USA   USA
Scott,

The drawings reference to a datum as referencing to the frame bottom will vary with the thickness of the frame, welds etc., but I think I can get you to the measurement you want with what you have. I have to use my dimensions as I don't have the drawing for the TR6. Interestingly, the TR4A drawing does not reference the dimension of the rear body mount position on top of the frame rail to the datum. The closest is the leaf spring mount point (68), so I will use this as an example:

The distance from the spring mount point (68) to the datum is 3.28 - 3.34

The two frame bracket mount points(59, 60) are different, so I will use 60, the one closest to the rear.
The distance from the top of the frame mount bracket (60) to the datum is 6.53 - 6.47

So the range is the maximum frame bracket distance minus the minimum spring distance compared to the minimum frame bracket distance minus the maximum spring distance:
6.53 - 3.28 = 3.25
6.47 - 3.34 = 3.13

So the range of distance between the top of the frame bracket at 60 to the spring mount (68) is between 3.13 and 3.25

To determine the distance from the bottom of the frame to the spring mount simply add the actual measurement from the bottom of the frame to the top of the frame mount bracket welded on at that point (60).

Does this get you to where you need?

Jim

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Desert TR Avatar
Desert TR Jim P
Albuquerque, NM, USA   USA
Scott,

Now that I've given you a way to find the point, allow me to put on my engineering hat. The reason there is no measurement to the point(s) you are looking for is that they are uncontrolled and considered unusable. It is clear from the drawing, the frame was manufactured on a jig up side down. The mounting brackets and other points with numbers referenced to the datum were bolted to the jig and the frame rails were welded to them is a less than controlled manner. The "critical" points were only mounted with a +/- 0.032 inch tolerance. It's my guess the uncontrolled frame points could vary by well more than an eighth and maybe as much as a quarter of an inch. If you want to know what's going on with the frame, you have to go back to the points the factory referenced, the body mount brackets (IMHO).

Jim

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
In reply to # 1325290 by Desert TR Scott,

Now that I've given you a way to find the point, allow me to put on my engineering hat. The reason there is no measurement to the point(s) you are looking for is that they are uncontrolled and considered unusable. It is clear from the drawing, the frame was manufactured on a jig up side down. The mounting brackets and other points with numbers referenced to the datum were bolted to the jig and the frame rails were welded to them is a less than controlled manner. The "critical" points were only mounted with a +/- 0.032 inch tolerance. It's my guess the uncontrolled frame points could vary by well more than an eighth and maybe as much as a quarter of an inch. If you want to know what's going on with the frame, you have to go back to the points the factory referenced, the body mount brackets (IMHO).

Jim

Hi Jim(and ALL!- Thanks for all the great info!) The most important thing I'm trying to figure out is the angle between "straight" from the main part of the frame, and the rear section, and the distance up that the end of the frame is from a line extended back from the straight section... That will allow me a rough estimate...

Scott

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David DPS Avatar
David DPS David S
Louisville, KY, USA   USA
Scott,

Here is the answer to your hogged chassis problem. Roger Williams, "How to Restore Your Triumph TR5/250 and TR6:

https://books.google.com/books?id=OOYnrKTFDBEC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=triumph+factory+fender+seam+sealer&source=bl&ots=MC00OXbpwe&sig=_md-uCKkTc6qHMC_f-3vyQtIX9Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCGoVChMIzdjPgvnqyAIVR-xjCh3OsQx0#v=onepage&q=triumph%20factory%20fender%20seam%20sealer&f=false

See pages 30 and 51 to see the common causes, identification, and suggested remediation. Also door gap measurements with a slight widening at the top, 3mm bottom and 5-6mm at the top.

The suggested remediation, I believe, was one of the things you were considering.

You should not see the bottom edge of the frame end below the rear valance.
Up to three aluminum shims at the rear are fine. 5 or 6 are clearly too much for mounting the bumper.
If three shims are not enough unbolt the body from the frame and remove all of the aluminum shims, but leave the rubber pads.
Cut all but the top "flange" of both sides of the frame at 50 inches from the rear.
with the rear of the chassis easier to move, jack the chassis back up to the body. Jack the rear up until the door gaps are correct.
Weld the frame at that point. Williams goes on to say that when you separate the body and chassis again the gaps will change and that is why you then have to adjust the gap with the aluminum shims.

It is interesting that Williams attributes the chassis hogging problem in many instances to expansion of the metal in the frame when people weld. He says that it is a problem in many instances after repairs or replacement at the sections for the trailing arms and cruciform plate.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-10-31 02:31 PM by David DPS.

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
Thanks, David- I'll have to go find my copy & find those pages... It has been a long while since I read it, probably forgot...

Scott

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Scot1966 Avatar
Scot1966 Scot Bailey
Lebanon, CT, USA   USA
In reply to # 1326404 by David DPS Scott,

Here is the answer to your hogged chassis problem. Roger Williams, "How to Restore Your Triumph TR5/250 and TR6:

https://books.google.com/books?id=OOYnrKTFDBEC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=triumph+factory+fender+seam+sealer&source=bl&ots=MC00OXbpwe&sig=_md-uCKkTc6qHMC_f-3vyQtIX9Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCGoVChMIzdjPgvnqyAIVR-xjCh3OsQx0#v=onepage&q=triumph%20factory%20fender%20seam%20sealer&f=false

See pages 30 and 51 to see the common causes, identification, and suggested remediation.

You should not see the bottom edge of the frame end below the rear valance.

I read that many times over the years during my restoration. However, I would like to know if anyone can find a view of a TR6 from the rear, while you are squatting down, where you can't see any of the frame? I have looked at many cars at shows, dealer ads, low mileage unrestored cars, and all of them have some of the rear frame rail showing.

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David DPS Avatar
David DPS David S
Louisville, KY, USA   USA
Of course part of the rear frame shows. However, the spot that matters and the spot that Williams is referring to is the bottom of the frame as far aft as it goes. The very end of the frame where you can look inside the frame.
The end point closest to the bumper. The bottom where the frame ends.
This has nothing to do with seeing the rear of the frame further forward when squatting down.

If your eyesight is parallel to the ground the valance should be below the rear most point of the bottom of the frame. Since the rear legs slope upwards, obviously most of the rear frame is visible a few inches further forward.

From your picture, the spot on the frame that matters is the lower left bottom corner as you face the picture. It almost looks like the top edge of your frame is a smidgen lower than where the bottom edge should be, but that is due to the angle from which the picture was taken. If that picture was taken horizontal you could see really well how far up the rear of the frame has to come.

Your photo of what it looked like when you got it shows the rear bottom edge even with or above the bottom edge of the valance (and the door gap right).



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-01 01:25 PM by David DPS.


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