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RIRED56 Avatar
RIRED56 Michael Aubee
Stafford, VA, USA   USA
Scott,

Not to appear negative or overly critical, but it sounds to me as though you've butchered your frame. As a matter of fact, not once, but three times. Cutting, bending and welding a 14 gauge frame at its weakest point is simply not a smart move. Although it seems most of the sag or "hogging" on these frames is blamed on age, poor welding technique and shoddy repairs, deterioration of the lower and outer surfaces of the frame at the TA attachment points and under the lower T - shirt significantly affect the problem. Further contributing to the sag and door fit problems, is rotting of the lower B -posts as well as deterioration of the inner and outer sills and surrounding structure. The bottom line is that all of these things need to be solid and in proper alignment for the doors to fit, wheel geometry to be correct and for the vehicle to be safe. With all the comments and stories on this forum about the dreaded "DPO", I would not expect to see your public admission, or the apparent member support of your actions on this site. Check with any legitimate frame shop, or engineer and they'll laugh at what you've done. Corrections of this type should be done on a frame rack or a solid jig to the measurements shown in the TR6 Repair Operation Manual. They should not be done on the fly while flipped over on saw horses. Regardless, good luck with the remainder of your project. I hope that it works out and that no acquaintance of mine ever buys the car.

Michael

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
In reply to # 1341845 by RIRED56 Scott,

Not to appear negative or overly critical, but it sounds to me as though you've butchered your frame. As a matter of fact, not once, but three times. Cutting, bending and welding a 14 gauge frame at its weakest point is simply not a smart move. Although it seems most of the sag or "hogging" on these frames is blamed on age, poor welding technique and shoddy repairs, deterioration of the lower and outer surfaces of the frame at the TA attachment points and under the lower T - shirt significantly affect the problem. Further contributing to the sag and door fit problems, is rotting of the lower B -posts as well as deterioration of the inner and outer sills and surrounding structure. The bottom line is that all of these things need to be solid and in proper alignment for the doors to fit, wheel geometry to be correct and for the vehicle to be safe. With all the comments and stories on this forum about the dreaded "DPO", I would not expect to see your public admission, or the apparent member support of your actions on this site. Check with any legitimate frame shop, or engineer and they'll laugh at what you've done. Corrections of this type should be done on a frame rack or a solid jig to the measurements shown in the TR6 Repair Operation Manual. They should not be done on the fly while flipped over on saw horses. Regardless, good luck with the remainder of your project. I hope that it works out and that no acquaintance of mine ever buys the car.

Michael

Thank you for your opinion, Michael, I have been working with and restoring cars for over 30 years at this point... I am also an A&P mechanic... I do have a pretty good idea of what I am doing. If you had the whole story, and not just come in at the end, you would know that all the things you have "pointed out" have already been repaired. As has the frame. Oh- just so you know, TR6 frames apparently vary between 14 & 16 gauge. I have checked the metal in undiminished areas, and am fully aware of the construction. And what I have done is actually the SPECIFIED repair for the problem. I have never been referred to as a "DPO' for very good reason. By the way, I did consult with many other knowledgeable members of the TR community prior to starting that part of the operation. You need to remember something- these cars were not built on computer generated drawings and measurements: the "allowance" for most things in respect to construction is far greater than today's tin cans. I have created no problems with this repair. And these cars were MADE to be worked on by the home tinkerer- not having to go to "an engineer or frame shop" unless absolutely necessary. And, in this case, my specific talents, along with my resources were sufficient to create a solid, safe repair. Even though done "flipped over on sawhorses" Remember- mechanics have been doing this sort of thing since day ONE. I AM a MECHANIC. I take great pride in my skills. I do not bodge. I REPAIR. I also take insult to my mother much more kindly than insult to my skills. Feel free to click on one of my photos, and look at work previously accomplished in this restoration. I do not do "Concourse". I do SOLID DRIVER level.

Here's one to click on-


This was taken as the major repairs were completed: You'll notice the new metal in place where the frame has had sections repaired, as well as new swing arm mounts, cruciform panels, etc. After the major repairs were finished, the rest of the frame was stripped & rechecked for hidden damage, and completed. Not everyone has the money or space for a frame table. But some of us DO have the knowledge to work around most problems. This photo is around the middle of the album. Click on the pic, and you can see. I also have several other restorations on my Photobucket page...

Scott



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2016-01-18 01:50 PM by ng19delta.

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RIRED56 Avatar
RIRED56 Michael Aubee
Stafford, VA, USA   USA
Scott,

We'll just have to disagree on this one. Not that it matters, but I too have held an A&P since 1974. Being as aircraft are not typically made of steel, this is hardly relevant. I have also done restorations for many years on many cars and for many people. Now, I'm retired from flying and fixing aircraft and spending quite a bit of time in my shop building cars. You stated quite emphatically that your method "is actually the SPECIFIED repair for the problem". I am unaware of any reference that says to cut the frame and bend it but I don't claim to know everything. However, unless you can provide a black and white reference to support that claim, I'm calling BS. It may work out for you and I sincerely hope it does, but I do not think it is a proper, or durable repair. You may have 30 years of experience as an A&P, but many forum members know little or nothing about car repair and should not follow your lead. They visit forums such as this for assistance and guidance. Instead of getting meaningful replies, they often get meaningless or incorrect comments and opinions. It's one thing to state how you performed a repair, yet entirely different to say it is "the specified method"! How many uninformed and inexperienced members are going to look at what you've written and run with it? I wonder about liability when someone's chassis fails after they performed your "SPECIFIED" repair? I personally would be more cautious with tendering such statements. Every time I go to a car show or look at one of these forums, I see too many examples of why many owners have no business doing anything more than checking tire pressure! We claim to be sustaining the Marque, when so many are simply bastardizing classic cars. I am nor a purist snob that thinks everything needs to be as it was at the factory, but I do try to replicate originality when practicable. I've had to do frame repairs on 3 different TRs to date. All had varying degrees of droop/hogging and as such, all were deteriorated on the lower and outer walls of the center frame area as is quite common. All of them also required new TA's and outrigger repairs. The method I use to true them requires considerable set up time, but basically involves establishing a reference datum for accuracy while measuring and then blocking and pulling the center of the frame into alignment. Welding was done using plug and stitch welds very cautiously to prevent distortion. I make all correctional adjustments with the lower T-shirt, TA supports and all rot removed. I should mention that I also add cross and adjustable longitudinal bracing to prevent unwanted movement or damage. After truing the frame, I form and install preformed internal 10G doublers that extend about 8" beyond each end of the work area for added strength along with fitted (invisible after grinding) 14G surface patches wherever the metal was rotted or cut away. I also fit and weld, flush 14G patches where the top was cut away and then add an external 12G doubler on the lower frame and extending 3-4 inches beyond the surface patch. I do this for additional strength and personnel choice. Topped it off with a new cruciform plate and it makes for a solid albeit "NON-SPECIFIED" repair. The whole process requires time, patience and good welding skills but it works for me. Bottom line - I'm done writing and discussing it!

Good luck,

Michael

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
Mike, I have 30 years with CAR RESTORATIONS. Ad as to the reference, I refer you to Roger WIlliam's book, How to Restore Your Triumph TR5/250 and TR6:

https://books.google.com/books?id=OOYnrKTFDBEC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=triumph+factory+fender+seam+sealer&source=bl&ots=MC00OXbpwe&sig=_md-uCKkTc6qHMC_f-3vyQtIX9Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCGoVChMIzdjPgvnqyAIVR-xjCh3OsQx0#v=onepage&q=triumph%20factory%20fender%20seam%20sealer&f=false

See pages 30 and 51 to see the common causes, identification, and suggested remediation. Also door gap measurements with a slight widening at the top, 3mm bottom and 5-6mm at the top. (thanks to Dave DPS for the original citation of this info in my older string regarding the problems I was encountering: "Re: Spacers & door gaps, of course" Spacers & Door Gaps, Of Course link

As I stated before, the frame was repaired prior to discovery of the hogging: and hogging IS a common issue with the rear swing arm mount/cruciate plate replacement if not welded in a very specific manner, as outlined in Williams. As well as the plates, several sections of frame were repaired quite properly. I do know what I'm doing, thanks. Not my first LBC, not my first frame repair. And not for sale, so not to worried about that either...

Anyway, no hard feelings, in case you were worried.

Scott

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RIRED56 Avatar
RIRED56 Michael Aubee
Stafford, VA, USA   USA
Scott,

I'll respond one last time out of a sense of courtesy but I'm done. I do not have any hard feelings, but I'm nobodies fool. I'm not buying what you are selling because it is not correct. I asked for a specific reference and you send a multipage excerpt from the restoration manual. I own the book and I've looked through the whole damn thing. Bottom line - there is nothing written in the book that that supports your position. Your supposedly (SPECIFIED) method of cutting and bending the frame aft of the T - shirt to correct hogging is simply wrong. I don't care if you are an A&P, or if you've been working on cars for 100 years, your claim does not hold water. Let's drop this and get on with life. I'm done with it and I will not respond or react any further.

Take care,

Michael

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
In reply to # 1342227 by RIRED56 Scott,

I'll respond one last time out of a sense of courtesy but I'm done. I do not have any hard feelings, but I'm nobodies fool. I'm not buying what you are selling because it is not correct. I asked for a specific reference and you send a multipage excerpt from the restoration manual. I own the book and I've looked through the whole damn thing. Bottom line - there is nothing written in the book that that supports your position. Your supposedly (SPECIFIED) method of cutting and bending the frame aft of the T - shirt to correct hogging is simply wrong. I don't care if you are an A&P, or if you've been working on cars for 100 years, your claim does not hold water. Let's drop this and get on with life. I'm done with it and I will not respond or react any further.

Take care,

Michael

No need to reply, but you cite "multi page": The page shown (Page 51) first column, second paragraph following the first "red dot", beginning with "This need not concern you if the body has to come off for painting" It describes the process, and gives a location as " about 50in in front of the rear of the car" This location is not logical, as it puts it in an incorrect spot for the repair... It states to "Remove all the spacers (but not the rubber pads) cut all but the top flange of both rear chassis legs... ...jack the chassis until it is again supporting the body and door gaps are correct. Reweld the chassis..." I have the hardcopy of the book as well, and will guarantee you, it is in there.

Have fun.
Scott

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SteveKJR Steve KJR
Stockbridge, GA, USA   USA
After reading both posts regarding the accuracy of frame work and welding, this is how I see it. Regardless of how the work is done, who's doing it and weather it is first stitched welded or gmaw welded, stick welded or tig welded the end result will be the same - satisfaction of the work accomplished by the person doing it.

The accuracy of a project being done, regardless of what that project is, is based on tolerances. Be it woodworking, drafting, machining steel, or working on a car frame, tolerances are the key to getting things done right.

However even though tolerances are given, built into those tolerances are a margin of error. So two people could be building the same project and one person may not be dead on accurate when it comes to making one part of the project whereas the other person may be dead nuts on.

In the end, both projects because of the margin of error, would be accurately built. So, does a 1/16" out on one side whereas on the other side it is dead nuts on have such an impact on the final project that it would make it way off - no.

Just how accurate do you have to be on a vehicle built over 30 years ago that was put together by the use of jigs and mostly by hand with a margin of error much greater then new cars being built by robotics with tolerances within the thousands?

As I previously stated - satisfaction of the work accomplished by the person doing it is all that matters because that person knows he did it to the best of his ability.

Same when I tore into the engine on my 78 911 targa and completely took it apart down to splitting the case. As long as I had the specs for the engine and the tolerances I rebuilt the engine and have since put over 80,000 miles on it.

People were telling me there were things I needed to have done by a shop because it was beyond my ability to do it, but I guess I proved them wrong. When you have all the right tools you need to do a job, you can do it. I will add that mechanical ability has a lot to do with it and it's amazing how many people there are in this country working out of their garage who can do amazing things.

Now I am not taking sides but just saying things can get done accurately under certain circumstances if you have the right information on how to do it.

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David DPS Avatar
David DPS David S
Louisville, KY, USA   USA
It is a real shame that this thread has deteriorated.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2016-01-20 12:13 PM by David DPS.

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RIRED56 Avatar
RIRED56 Michael Aubee
Stafford, VA, USA   USA
Scott,

See how easy that was? Thank you! There's nothing like eating a little crow for breakfast!

I wish you had identified that little earlier, but I'm relieved to see it at all! I've looked past that too many times to count. Regardless, I suspect that I wont be the only one learning from this exchange. I do apologize for beating you up in the interim but with 40+ years in flight standards and maintenance, I always say "show me" when I have doubts about something. You clearly did (albeit slowly) so good on you!

Best of luck and thanks again,

Michael

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RIRED56 Avatar
RIRED56 Michael Aubee
Stafford, VA, USA   USA
Steve,

I actually agree with all you said. In this particular case, I simply questioned what was represented a "SPECIFIED" repair procedure. I thought it was extreme and impractical because of the age, thickness and structural requirements of the chassis. I asked Scott numerous times to provide a specific reference that I did not receive until late last night. In the final analysis, the method is in fact stated in the Triumph Enthusiasts Restoration Manual. Our discussion was indeed going down hill but thankfully, Scott was able to educate me on the matter. My intent was never to say my method was better than his. It was simply that if you represent something as a "Specified Repair", you should be able to show the source of that assertion. It was a long hard road to that destination but we finally got there!

Regards,

Michael

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
In reply to # 1342303 by RIRED56 Scott,

See how easy that was? Thank you! There's nothing like eating a little crow for breakfast!

I wish you had identified that little earlier, but I'm relieved to see it at all! I've looked past that too many times to count. Regardless, I suspect that I wont be the only one learning from this exchange. I do apologize for beating you up in the interim but with 40+ years in flight standards and maintenance, I always say "show me" when I have doubts about something. You clearly did (albeit slowly) so good on you!

Best of luck and thanks again,

Michael

As I said, Mike- No hard feelings winking smiley I wouldn't have done it that way if I hadn't found info on doing so... I always research what needs to be done first. I'm just sorry I didn't post the exact location for the info first: When I click the link, it goes right to it... I figured you'd see it as well. It IS a very hard paragraph to find- as is the one in there which describes "hogging" in the first place. It is a great book, but not as easy to read as AC 43.13-1B... Lots of info, tho..

Scott

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RIRED56 Avatar
RIRED56 Michael Aubee
Stafford, VA, USA   USA
Just for the record:

The applicable reference for the method Scott used is identified on Page 51, lower portion of left hand column, not on page 52, starting at column 1 last paragraph as you said. If your goal is to instigate, keep writing. If you want to contribute - be accurate.

What I questioned throughout the last couple of days was the lack of a reference for what was called a "Specified Repair". Scott provided the reference to me late last night - End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. Did I ever say that my method was better? The answer is NO so correct yourself and quit making noise. As to your point of offering constructive criticism earlier. I agree, had I only seen earlier posts which I could not find.


To the pointed invalid accusations and your sarcastic baiting that I should publish my methodology with photos: At this point - that is very unlikely! Maybe you should have asked prior to your snotty attack?

As to your comments on bragging rights and mechanical skills, look again. What I did was dismiss the importance of both of our aircraft maintenance and repair skills in relation to this particular task. By the way, it's great that your grandfather built airplanes but how is that pertinent to this discussion?

Finally, after a painful and protracted exchange Scott provided the reference I sought. I have responded, I believe appropriately to all open threads and I am done. No more questions, replies or discussions to inflame anyone's sensitivities.

Regards,

Michael

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Zip960 Avatar
Zip960 Zip S
Panhandle, FL, USA   USA
Scott,

Did you cut the frame like Williams says too......and how digit turn out?

D

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ng19delta Avatar
ng19delta Scott Roberts
Merchantville, NJ, USA   USA
1974 Triumph TR6 "Gypsy Rose T..."
Cut as stated, and turned out great. It is a joy to drive. Can't wait for winter to be fully gone so I can abuse the roadways some more!

Scott

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Zip960 Avatar
Zip960 Zip S
Panhandle, FL, USA   USA
Scott,

Been following your threads for a LONG TIME. Love to read them, analyze your photos and really appreciate you sharing the trails and tribulations. It takes time to make the posts--THANK YOU.

Glad it is FINALLY driving time.....

I wonder what Micheal would say about Roger Williams Idea to cut the car in half just forward of the emergency brake tunnel?

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