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rebuilding TR3 brake and clutch cylinders

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T-time Avatar
T-time Barry O
Milton, ON, Canada   CAN
just removed all the components for the brake and clutch cylinders last night to rebuild them.

I noticed there two cylinders are not exactly the same. One has a " ring" around the casting, is this an older model?

The other thing is when I disassembled the two cylinders that there is a washer on the shaft arms .

One has it the C clip before the washer, the other is after the washer . This is how they came apart .

would any one know which would be correct? much appreciated



Barry
59 TR3A
68 Mustang

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cylinders disassembled.jpg    31.9 KB
cylinders disassembled.jpg

Geo Hahn Avatar
Mt Lemmon, AZ, USA   USA
Neither appear to be original so I do not know that the ring matters much (some cylinder manufacturers used a ring(s) to designate bore).

My recollection is that the c-clip goes on last... i.e. after the washer is in. The clip then prevents the washer (and rod) from coming out.

Any marks on the cylinders to indicate mfg or country of origin?

T-time Avatar
T-time Barry O
Milton, ON, Canada   CAN
both are manufactured by Girling but two different part number at the end

310680 D1 and 310680 D5

I also have now noticed the springs are different, believe the heavier one was from the brake cylinder



Barry
59 TR3A
68 Mustang

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Girling cylinders.jpg

310680.jpg    31.7 KB
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Jacad Avatar
Jacad Gold Member Barry Shefner
Montreal, QC, Canada   CAN
1959 Triumph TR3A "Loose Wheels"
1976 Triumph TR6 "The Tweetster"
Barry,

The circlip (clip ring) goes on after the washer. IMO the heavier/lighter spring should not make a difference. Page 3 of the below Girling service bulletin describes how to rebuild the cylinder. Important to check for scratches in the cylinder bores, if they are deep then you will not be successful in rebuilding (scratches will allow brake fluid to pass behind the rubber seal defeating its purpose and leading to pressure failure) and you will need to have the castings re-sleeved. Re-sleeving is costly at about $100/ cylinder vs about $23 for a brand new repro cylinder from Moss. https://mossmotors.com/master-cylinder-clutch-brake-3-4-bore?assoc=39941. Unless you have concourse aspirations it is hardly worth re-sleeving or rebuilding those brake and clutch cylinders. Of course there is no real fun in just popping in a new repro part vs rebuilding an old unit and finding out if it works properly or not first time you stomp on the brakes in an emergencysmiling smiley



Barry
59 TR3A 0TS57675LO - "Loose Wheels"
76 TR6 CF54266U - "The Tweetster"
Website: Triumph TR2-TR3-TR4 www.trtriumph.com/ (sorry for not keeping it current for the past couple of years)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2019-01-30 12:42 PM by Jacad.


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Girling Brake Cyl.jpg    33.3 KB
Girling Brake Cyl.jpg

tr3_girling_brakeclutch_bulletin_444_t_93_1957_02.pdf    733.1 KB
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T-time Avatar
T-time Barry O
Milton, ON, Canada   CAN
thanks for the replies, now I know what order the C clip goes. I checked the cylinders and see no scoring, very smooth.

and the Girling bulletin is great to have, thank you Barry

Definitely not concourse, its a driver cool smiley Going to rebuild these, I agree much more fun



Barry
59 TR3A
68 Mustang

TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
In reply to # 1593098 by Jacad finding out if it works properly or not first time you stomp on the brakes in an emergencysmiling smiley
Which is exactly why I advocate periodic testing of the brakes, in a non-emergency situation! Find a nice quiet road, with no traffic behind you, and try a test stomp.

It's also important driver training, IMO. Find the point where the wheels just start to slip a little bit, without locking up. That is the point at which you get maximum braking (shortest stopping distance), which is something you need to know. Then go a bit farther, and find out what happens. You should be able to lock all 4 wheels if you want. If not, there is a problem with the brakes even if they seem normal otherwise. It should also stop straight, even when the front wheels lock and the rears don't. If one side locks up first, there is a problem.

And at the same time, you are doing a pressure test.

Note that problems aren't always the brakes themselves; issues with tires and suspension can show up in a panic stop as well. I once bought a 3A where one of the front suspension pivots had torn loose from the frame. It still drove reasonably well, and the alignment shop didn't spot the problem. But if you got on the brakes hard, it would pull to the left something awful. I thought at first I could control it with the steering wheel, but then someone pulled out in front of me and I could NOT keep it from jumping the median curb into what would have been oncoming traffic (if there were any, which fortunately for me there was not). I eventually wrecked that car, because one of the hard lines had rotted through and let all the fluid out.



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L Once and future daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild

peerlessgt Avatar
peerlessgt paul milsom
Llanfair Caereinion, powys, UK   GBR
quite honestly, don't even bother rebuilding them... go online to the LandRover 4x4 shop in the uk and buy new ones for the series 1/2 thats1 and 2 . same animal, tr shop £45, landrover shop £9 plus shipping. they all 7/8 bore. don't try for 1" bore they too big. these are identical to early land rover. including the reservoir. fitted these in my peerless. same stuff

TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
Might be "close enough", but I don't believe they are identical to the originals.

One thing that is rarely mentioned, TR3 with disc brakes and early TR3A used a different MC than the later TR3A-3B; with both ports sticking out straight instead of one being at an angle. The pipes were slightly different as well.

(Photo courtesy Don Elliott, RIP)




Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L Once and future daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild

T-time Avatar
T-time Barry O
Milton, ON, Canada   CAN
I have cleaned everything up and ready for paint. Too cold in the garage today so I went icefishing instead. Tomorrow will be warmer.
I plan on rebuilding the original cylinders, I like to reuse what ever part I can. When I reinstall everything I also believe ( hope) the brake lines will line up and tighten up without issues



Barry
59 TR3A
68 Mustang


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20190131_211330.jpg

Geo Hahn Avatar
Mt Lemmon, AZ, USA   USA
When you go to put the label on the reservoir note that the words 'brake' and 'clutch' are meant to be positioned right above the respective outlet lines. This looks okay on a RHD car as the label faces out but I think on a LHD car it faces in.

Sometimes you get to choose between looking right and being right.

Jacad Avatar
Jacad Gold Member Barry Shefner
Montreal, QC, Canada   CAN
1959 Triumph TR3A "Loose Wheels"
1976 Triumph TR6 "The Tweetster"
Barry,

If you are not aware, Moss offers an improved seal for the reservoir cap. https://mossmotors.com/media/instructions/582-505.pdf It does help to protect against fluid leakage which if you are using dot 3 fluid can/will result in paint damage on the shelf beneath the cylinder. Also in case you are unaware, there is a nut and seal within the canister that holds each of the pipe nipples in place. Sometimes these may loosen resulting in leakage of fluid via the nipple/reservoir connection and you can tighten it by inserting a socket (I think it's 13/16"winking smiley into the reservoir and tightening the nut. At one time you could buy the fiber (or maybe it's a copper crush type) washer but nowadays the parts suppliers just want to sell you the complete reservoir.

Randall, I believe that the change point for the straight output to the angled output on the Master brake and clutch cylinders occurred at TS34311.



Barry
59 TR3A 0TS57675LO - "Loose Wheels"
76 TR6 CF54266U - "The Tweetster"
Website: Triumph TR2-TR3-TR4 www.trtriumph.com/ (sorry for not keeping it current for the past couple of years)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-03 07:42 AM by Jacad.

TuRtle5 Avatar
TuRtle5 Kevin Kelly
Absecon, NJ, USA   USA
1949 Triumph 2000 Roadster "Coral Mistress"
1959 Triumph TR3A "Drandulet"
1962 Triumph Vitesse "Ohtoseethelightofday"
1968 Triumph TR250    & more
Barry- funny, my master cyl.s had different springs in each like yours, but both have the ring. I agree with Barry that the spring wouldn't matter and as Randall says about testing brakes. I also will periodically push brake and clutch pedals when cars are just sitting dormant. - Kevin


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IMG_20190203_081505039.jpg

TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
It's possible the springs have been replaced separately. The spring inside my (apparently original) clutch MC on TS39781LO broke into 4 pieces; and I replaced it with the slightly stiffer spring from a TR4A MC. I've no idea why, but at least at that time (roughly 20 years ago), only the later spring was available from the usual suspects.



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L Once and future daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild

T-time Avatar
T-time Barry O
Milton, ON, Canada   CAN
thanks to everyone for the very helpful comments, almost ready to reinstall everything

I did notice when I removed the Master Cylinder mounting bracket that underneath it on the body there was some type of hard sealant spread very thin.

It came off in in bits/chunks easily since the brake fluid had leaked over the years, I am thinking it was to keep the rain from creeping in at the joint, but not sure .

and Barry, the information on the new style Gasket for Reservoir Cap is great , it's on order now



Barry
59 TR3A
68 Mustang

TR3nut Nelson B
Atl, GA, USA   USA
C clip is last as diagram. remember to install everything with fluid DOT 3 or DOT 5 (inside) that you are going to use in your car. Fluids are not compatible, so when everything is new or the system has been properly flushed, you can put DOT 5 Silicone base fluid. Otherwise, stay with what it was before. Pro's: DOT 5 will not eat up the paint in the event of a leak.

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