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skyking1231 Avatar
skyking1231 Silver Member Frank Strobel
Mt. Sinai, NY, USA   USA
1975 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Lil' Rose"
started to get stuff for the seasonal oil change (although the roads here are still carppy...snow/salt). and as always. finding my beloved valvoline VR1 20/50 oil is becoming more diffiicult....actually it's just Pep Boys, they don't stock it anymore. However i was looking at some other brands...Penzoil, Castrol, and the bullshit pep boys brand has 20/50. but not sure of the zinc amount. I remember seeing a chart of various brands of oil and the zinc amount. I also rememebr reading that the VR1 oil had way more zinc that our little engines call for.

anyone know the chart that i am referring too ?


also I see Mobil has a 15/50 oil. although it is synthetic...would a 15 weight oil be better for startup ? figure it would get the oil flowing quicker through the engine when cold....and then you get the 50 weight when hot ?? i don't know...

anyone know what Triumph orignally intened for the propere zinc amount ? or is it all BS.

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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, BC, Canada   CAN
Oh Boy! ;-)

One of the better articles I have seen on ZDDP

https://www.duckhams.com/zddp-what-does-it-all-mean/

Yes, 15w-50 will help a little when cold starting, and mobil 1 one is good oil (if a little expensive for our short oil change intervals)

There are lots of 15w-40's out there with very good EP additive packs.

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FrankD Avatar
FrankD Frank D
Doylestown, PA, USA   USA

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Smithisretired Avatar
Smithisretired Michael Smith
Wells, ME, USA   USA
One of my Haynes manuals tells us the recommended engine oil is Duckham's Hypergrade 20-W-50. And that is the USA version of the book. Of course, the edition on my bookshelf was printed in 1988, so perhaps recommendations have changed. Of course, Triumph itself was history at that point, too. Your car, a 1975, was built about five years after I graduated from college, but during my college years in the late 1960s, I worked regularly in a Texaco station, at times doing most of the "furrin" car work. During those years, I do not think I ever once heard any discussion about the zinc content of motor oil or zinc additives. I do recall that most, if not all manufacturers recommended against any additive, which of course went strongly against the grain of those people that believed STP really did work. I am willing to bet that Triumph had no recommendations whatsoever about the zinc content of motor oil in engines of its manufacture.

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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, BC, Canada   CAN
To quote Joni Mitchell " Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you got till it's gone"

She might have been singing about ZDDP, but probably was not.

ZDDP only became an issue about 20 years ago. How much an issue it really is for OUR classic cars is still debatable .

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Herald948 Avatar
Herald948 Andrew Mace
East Nassau, upstate NY, USA   USA
In reply to # 1600842 by skyking1231 ...would a 15 weight oil be better for startup ? figure it would get the oil flowing quicker through the engine when cold....
My experience, some of it actually not all that long ago (<10 years), was that 10W-40 was the way to go in cold upstate New York winters, then back to 20W-50 in summer, for my Herald. Just sayin'.... winking smiley



http://www.fairpoint.net/~herald948/database/

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sdebaker Silver Member Paul Rollins
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
In reply to # 1600908 by Tonyfixit To quote Joni Mitchell " Don't it always seem to go, you don't know what you got till it's gone"

She might have been singing about ZDDP, but probably was not.

ZDDP only became an issue about 20 years ago. How much an issue it really is for OUR classic cars is still debatable .

ZDDP has been used in motor oil at least since the 1950's. In the MS grade oil of the 1950's and 60's, the ZDDP content was about 500 ppm. The design of the Spitfire engine dates back at least that far. Current, API SN grade oil has 600-800 PPM ZDDP.

For my, older, stock engines, operated within their original design envelope, I am comfortable with current, SN-grade oil. The decision of others may differ. If I was running significantly-modified engines -- more radical cam, higher-force valve springs, etc., and typically at higher rpm . -- I would want higher ZDDP level, in the range of 1200 ppm.

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T-Bolt Ted Teddy Bear
Wildmansbeach, South-Carelia, Finland   FIN
Holy shit, Duckhams is still available?! My dad used to swear by that green stuff in his Volvo Amazon. I got to get some for the Spit, for nostalgy's sake if nothing else...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-09 06:48 AM by T-Bolt Ted.

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Smithisretired Avatar
Smithisretired Michael Smith
Wells, ME, USA   USA
https://www.duckhams.com/

Here is their answer to a FAQ regarding zinc content:

“Modern oils” have approximately one-third of the amount of ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) required by classic engines which is why Duckhams Classic Q should be used. Studies have also shown that too much ZDDP, often touted as a marketing benefit, can cause stiction of components. Duckhams have an optimised level of ZDDP well above that found in modern engine oils whilst avoiding an unnecessarily high level that can cause component stickiness."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-09 07:32 AM by Smithisretired.

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sampattr250 Avatar
sampattr250 Sam P
Harwinton, CT, USA   USA
You can always get into the diesel engine oils or motor cycle engine oils which are readily available.

Mobil Delvac: https://www.mobil.com/English-US/Commercial-Vehicle-Lube/pds/GLXXMobil-Delvac-1300-Super

Kendall GT1: https://www.kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquid-titanium

Shell Rotella T: http://www.purseroil.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RotellaT4TP15W-40.pdf

All of these oils can be purchased at your FLAPS or Super Stores.

Opinions on Oils and Filters are many and varied. Good Luck smileys with beer



Sam

1968 TR250
1972 MK IV Spitfire

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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, BC, Canada   CAN
In reply to # 1600960 by sampattr250 You can always get into the diesel engine oils or motor cycle engine oils which are readily available.

Mobil Delvac: https://www.mobil.com/English-US/Commercial-Vehicle-Lube/pds/GLXXMobil-Delvac-1300-Super

Kendall GT1: https://www.kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquid-titanium

Shell Rotella T: http://www.purseroil.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RotellaT4TP15W-40.pdf

All of these oils can be purchased at your FLAPS or Super Stores.

Opinions on Oils and Filters are many and varied. Good Luck smileys with beer

Most Diesel lubrication oils carry duel certification fro Diesel AND Gasoline engines this is sometimes refered to as 'mixed fleet'
However the latest version of conventional non synthetic Rotella T4 no longer carries an 'S' (gasoline engine certification).
When asked about this, and specifially about Zinc (ZDDP) content Shell responded with this:

"T4 15W-40 still has the same amount of zinc, which is around 1200 ppm. We still recommend this for older vehicles with flat tappet camshafts that require high amounts of anti-wear. The Rotella T4 15W-40 has improved oxidation stability, aeration control, and shear stability compared to the previous formulation (Rotella T Triple Protection). "

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skyking1231 Avatar
skyking1231 Silver Member Frank Strobel
Mt. Sinai, NY, USA   USA
1975 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Lil' Rose"
what do you thinka a good range of zinc ppm for a stock engine? What would be the outcome (and how many miles), if i put 5qts of "i don't give a shit " oil 20w50 with zero zinc in my engine? Just curious of how much wear... compared to a zinc oil. Is it sort of like running unleaded gas vs leaded gas in engine with non hardened valve seats.

btw...not trying to beat a dead horse here....but just wondering

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Herald948 Avatar
Herald948 Andrew Mace
East Nassau, upstate NY, USA   USA
I might need a double batch of popcorn.... winking smiley



http://www.fairpoint.net/~herald948/database/

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sdebaker Silver Member Paul Rollins
Vancouver, WA, USA   USA
In reply to # 1601403 by skyking1231 what do you thinka a good range of zinc ppm for a stock engine? What would be the outcome (and how many miles), if i put 5qts of "i don't give a shit " oil 20w50 with zero zinc in my engine? Just curious of how much wear... compared to a zinc oil. Is it sort of like running unleaded gas vs leaded gas in engine with non hardened valve seats.

btw...not trying to beat a dead horse here....but just wondering

Just curious. What brands of oil have zero "zinc" (I'm guessing you are referring to ZDDP, ZDTP, ZDP) in 20w50 motor oil?

I read (on the never-to-be-doubted Internet) that " ...ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate = Zinc and Phosphorus) is being removed from domestic motor oil by order of the E.P.A..." That's from the ZDDP Plus (R) listing in the Moss Motors online catalog https://mossmotors.com/zddplus-engine-oil-additive. However, I am not aware of the names of the oil brands that have actually gone to zero zinc, or even zero ZDDP. It would be good to know so we can avoid them.

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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, BC, Canada   CAN
Oils with a second number over 30 (like 10w-40 or 20w-50) are classed as Heavy Duty Engine Oils (HDEO) they typically have the maximum allowable ZDDP compound in their formulation within their API rating (older ratings like SM have a higher allowance than the latest SN rating.

I know of no approved oil that has Zero ZDDP (apart from anything else, it is cheaper that many of the other extream pressure additives)

But if you are asking 'how low can you go' with a stock engine that is well broken in. Who knows. But consider the late Irv Gordon
Who put millions of miles on his flat lifter high compresson Volvo



Now Irv must have been a bit of a strange guy, He did use only Castrol products but kind of did his own thing, reportedly buying his own oil.

He changed the oil for the seasons using GTX 5w-30 or 10w-30 in the winter months (formulations that are quite low in ZDDP)
But used a Castrol Diesel (mixed fleet) 15w-40 in the summer (this has a little more ZDDP but is by no means the highest in it's class.
Of course Castrol would have liked him to use Syntec or another premium oil, but what if that backfired on them after the car had already 3 or 4 million miles with the cheap stuff?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-03-11 08:18 PM by Tonyfixit.

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