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A view into the head - too rusty ?

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tmpass Avatar
tmpass Tim P
Medway, MA, USA   USA
1970 Triumph GT6+ (MkII) "Capo"
1970 Triumph GT6+ (MkII) "Blue Oxide"
In reply to # 1595774 by tapkaJohnD Phosphoric acid differs from all other organic acids in having an INSOLUBLE reaction product with ferric oxide, (hematite, rust). Thus it must be scrubbed off, unlike other acids whose products dissolve off.
Phosphoric is a great final preparation of parts AFTER rust has been removed by other means. Iron phosphate, once dried, is a hard, black coating that is an excellent foundation for primer and paint.
But an acid that has a SOLUBLE product with rust will be more effective inside the cooling system, where you cannot reach to scrub it away. Acetic acid works well, as vinegar! Its cheap enough to use neat, and the smell doesn't last!
John

ya that POR "metal ready" product is what I use just prior to painting frames or engine blocks... always assumed it was phosphoric acid

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JohnW63 John Williamson
Apple Valley, CA, USA   USA
Quote: that cylinder head should have never come back from your machine shop looking that way.

Sigh. If I had know to look for it, when I picked it up, I would have said something. I didn't see in the ports until the head was on the block. Even then, I wouldn't have known what was customary or normal. What is my best option, at this point ? Can I home remedy this ?



Home of the 1969 GT6+ MK II resurrection project
and a sorry looking 1968 GT6+ parts car trying to stay whole.

JohnW63 John Williamson
Apple Valley, CA, USA   USA
John,
Quote: Acetic acid works well, as vinegar!

I've tried that, as an engine flush, in the past, without good results. Is there a concentration level that is required ?



Home of the 1969 GT6+ MK II resurrection project
and a sorry looking 1968 GT6+ parts car trying to stay whole.

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Lizzard d id
san jose, CA, USA   USA
In reply to # 1595744 by F1000RACER Phosphoric Acid works like magic.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/ot-rust-remover-89433/

http://ecologicarchitecture.com/SoloHobbit/rust/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2019-02-11 03:18 PM by Lizzard.

JohnW63 John Williamson
Apple Valley, CA, USA   USA
Trying to find a good source. Just typing in Phosphoric Acid in Google gives many results that are NOT P.A.



Home of the 1969 GT6+ MK II resurrection project
and a sorry looking 1968 GT6+ parts car trying to stay whole.

Doug in Vegas Avatar
Doug in Vegas Douglas D
Las Vegas, NV, USA   USA
It'll be funny if PA is an ingredient in Meth and the DEA just got triggered of a bunch of LBC guys.

Wolfcreek Steve Steve P
Central, WI, USA   USA
1937 Dodge Magnum "The Dodge"
1947 Unknown Unknown "My Autocar"
1980 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Vicki's Little Red Car"
Phosphoric acid is one of the main ingredients in Coca-Cola, now you know why it dissolves worms and rust!

JohnW63 John Williamson
Apple Valley, CA, USA   USA
Well, I wouldn't say it's a MAIN ingredient.

Quote: Ingredients

Carbonated water.
Sugar (sucrose or high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) depending on country of origin)
Caffeine.
Phosphoric acid.
Caramel color (E150d)
Natural flavorings.

I believe the further up the list an item is, the MORE of the percentage of the product it is. There is LOTS of water and sugar and then a good dose of caffeine, THEN some Phosphoric acid.



Home of the 1969 GT6+ MK II resurrection project
and a sorry looking 1968 GT6+ parts car trying to stay whole.

tapkaJohnD Avatar
tapkaJohnD John Davies
Lancaster, Lancashire, UK   GBR
Phosphoric acid is a "permitted food additive", and in the small concentration in Coke gives it its 'bite'.

"Muriatic acid" is another name for Hydrochloric acid, which is NOT an organic acid, and is much, much stronger. Sure, it will dissolve rust, but also the native metal beneath it. NOT t be used!

John Williamson - Google gives me many diet fad alarms about phosphoric acid (better directed at concnentrated sugary drink alarms!) and lots of suppliers, who appear to me to be bona fide. But that's because it is a useful chemical in industry, being non-toxic and relatively safe. See: http://scorecard.goodguide.com/chemical-profiles/uses.tcl?edf_substance_id=7664-38-2

On safety, Phosphoric acid is non-toxic, it's in Coke for goodness sake, but in concentrated form is a powerful acid. ALWAYS use rubber gloves, eye protection and wear a water proof apron or at least old clothes that you won't mind being bleached or holed by spills!
The same goes even for table vinegar! That's about 5% acetic acid, and is useful, IMHO. Bought as "White Vinegar" and as glass cleaner, it can smell better! Concentrated Acetic is available, 60% and you DO have to take precautions for that!
John

TriumphFan Avatar
TriumphFan Silver Member Jim S
Cumming, GA, USA   USA
1967 Triumph GT6 MkI "Cantankerous"
I am soaking my water pump in my witches brew of MSR and water. The water pump rust was as bad as the head pic I posted for John.
This is after a few hours. Cost for 5 gallons is about $13.



"If you didn't build it, it's not really yours"


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tapkaJohnD Avatar
tapkaJohnD John Davies
Lancaster, Lancashire, UK   GBR
"MSR"?

All I can find is "MSR 700 a Heavy Duty Acid Cleaner" described as "A foaming acid detergent for manual cleaning and application with mechanical cleaning devices for preventing mineral and alkali films."
As it seems to be associated with the food industry, it may contain Phosphoric acid, but the "heavy duty" sounds a bit agressive. In the food industry, stainless steel is the usual surface. Nitric acid can be used, and could be described as "heavy duty", but not Hydrochloric which attacks stainless, and would have cast iron for breakfast.

John

TriumphFan Avatar
TriumphFan Silver Member Jim S
Cumming, GA, USA   USA
1967 Triumph GT6 MkI "Cantankerous"
Sorry. Milk Stone Remover. I ordered two gallons from Tractor Supply. You can use it over and over.



"If you didn't build it, it's not really yours"

Catfish Phil Avatar
Catfish Phil Phillip Colwart
Hammond, LA, USA   USA
John,

How is the coolant in appearance? Is it all dark brown and murky, or bright green and unaffected by the surface rust?

Doug in Vegas Avatar
Doug in Vegas Douglas D
Las Vegas, NV, USA   USA
I found out pool acid eats holes in sneakers.

JohnW63 John Williamson
Apple Valley, CA, USA   USA
Phillip,

There isn't any coolant. It's just a motor on a chassis. Building from the ground up. The pictures are how it looks after getting the head rebuild with new parts.



Home of the 1969 GT6+ MK II resurrection project
and a sorry looking 1968 GT6+ parts car trying to stay whole.

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