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Limited Slip Diff

Posted by 96DXCivic 
Robert Coates
Franklin, KY, USA   usa

Where can I find a limited slip differential for Spitfires (a MK1 specifically)?
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Bill Kea
Spartanburg, SC, USA   usa

Only one I know about is Quaife and they are over $1,200.
yellowbookroad Avatar
Gareth T
Somewhere in, Estonia   est
1970 Triumph 2.5 PI MkII "Permanently NICKED Nickname"

Quaife are rubbish. They simply don't work.

I've built LSDs for Spitfires for near 30 years inc the original salisbury fitted in the Le Mans car, inc ADU3B. (I used to have one in my road car).

The only worthwhile LSD is a PLATE TYPE.
There are 2 done in the UK now, (Tranx and Gripper), and another salisbury was remanufactured in Australia for the dolomite.

The price is quite high, but sure as anything no-one would ever bring me to lower the price ever again.

(You get fat thanks for helping people out, all they want is freebies!)
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hymodyne Avatar
james king
salisbury, MD, USA   usa

Mention made here of LSD options.

http://www.triumphspitfire.com/substitute.html
spitlist Avatar
Joe Curry
Sahuarita, AZ, USA   usa

In reply to a post by yellowbookroad Quaife are rubbish. They simply don't work.

I've built LSDs for Spitfires for near 30 years inc the original salisbury fitted in the Le Mans car, inc ADU3B. (I used to have one in my road car).

The only worthwhile LSD is a PLATE TYPE.
There are 2 done in the UK now, (Tranx and Gripper), and another salisbury was remanufactured in Australia for the dolomite.

The price is quite high, but sure as anything no-one would ever bring me to lower the price ever again.

(You get fat thanks for helping people out, all they want is freebies!)

I see he's BACK! Actually, Quaife is not all that bad. It's biggest problem is that it is torque biased and if one wheel is off the ground or axle breaks(offerning no resistance on one side) it won't go anywhere. There are other options as Gareth suggests. I guess it all comes down to what you intend to use it for. One option is welding the diff so that both wheels turn simultaneously. This is NOPT recommended for daily drivers.

Joe

P.S. Don't fall for "Phantom Grip". I tested one (thanks to GT6 Steve) and found that they are (as Gareth would put it) RUBBISH. I could not see any difference in that and and open diff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2011 02:03PM by spitlist.
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yellowbookroad Avatar
Gareth T
Somewhere in, Estonia   est
1970 Triumph 2.5 PI MkII "Permanently NICKED Nickname"

We tested the Quaife back to back against a Salisbury in our FIA championship winning car in 1993.

The German co didn't believe me when I could get their car 2-3 seconds a lap faster...
They said "PERFECT" car...German style!

Funnily enough when we changed from that crap Quaife to a good second hand Salisbury, the car made that 5 seconds a lap difference IN THE WET.

In the dry it was even faster.
I spent ages convincing them..."sigh"!

I also worked on the Le Mans TR2, and they also said I couldn't make it better German style again!
I managed to build in some castor, get proper feel into the steering, then the magazine that reviewed the car thought it was "b...marvellous".

Said they had never driven a TR2 that was so nice to drive....



'nuff said really.

crap Germans, crap LSDs, Quaifes, been there done it, seen the video, read the book.

This is what you want:-




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2011 03:07PM by yellowbookroad.
Jerry Bryant
Palm Harbor, USA   usa

I didn't see one advertised for spitfires They ran 980.00 US for other TR's
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Bodge Garage Avatar
Kris Schmidt
Spokane WA, USA   usa

I wonder if the original poster is not racing the Germans? Maybe there is a time and a place for other options. Just a thought.
Andrew Mace
East Nassau, upstate NY, USA   usa
1962 Triumph Herald 1200
1967 Triumph Sports 1200 "The Munsonmobile"

What about the "Detroit Locker"? At one time, it was offered through the US Competition Parts program for Spitfires as well as other Triumphs. I don't know much about them or any other LS diff. so I don't know how it compared to the Salisbury unit, etc.
Kma4444 Avatar
Kevin Allen
Anderson, South Carolina, USA   usa

The locker is a strange animal to drive. Robust and reliable but you have to drive them differently. They are an open diff off the throttle and when you go back to throttle they lock the rear wheels together like a welded diff or spool. SO you get a good turn in and when you go back to the throttle it points the nose out of the corner, very unsettling until you learn to drive it.

I always ran a locked diff in the race car, it is the right choice for a swing axle Spit. It tends towards corner entry understeer which helps the Spit with it's high rear roll center. Makes it where you can really hang the car on it's rear tires getting in and then when you go to throttle, you drive it off using your right foot to point the nose. Great fun and fast when you are HP limited.
Robert Coates
Franklin, KY, USA   usa

Where can I find any of these limited slip differentials? I have a welded differential in it right now. I am planning on using it for vintage racing but I also want to take it to autocrosses every now and then and a welded differential sucks for that. I have driven plate type differentials versus torsen style in the same vehicle and I found the torsen was better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2011 07:43AM by 96DXCivic.
yellowbookroad Avatar
Gareth T
Somewhere in, Estonia   est
1970 Triumph 2.5 PI MkII "Permanently NICKED Nickname"

In reply to a post by Kma4444 I always ran a locked diff in the race car, it is the right choice for a swing axle Spit..

WRONG choice.
With this style of driving you will ALWAYS be slower.
Initial turn-in is one of the great unsung advantages of the Triumph cars.

Blasting into the entry of a corner with the front wheels pointing extremes and understeering means you will also run into the dive/castor/chassis flex mess the car is known for on the DOWN SIDE.
If you like it, fair enough.
It's SLOWER, just like it is on a mini, which also had good initial turn in, but then shed loads of disappointing speed penalising understeer.

Fast initial turn in means you can come in, brake MUCH later, then get on the right lines without going all over the place.
Locked diffs are absolutely hopeless for this.

Carrying high speeds into the corner means higher exit speeds, even if you have to be "slow in, fast out".
"slithering" your way around corners is nonsense, maybe looks and feels good, but sux on the stopwatch.

If you ever did any karting, you would see fastest is CLEANEST, > usually least spectacular., and heck THEY have locked axles from the word go, so they understeer/oversteer like crazy!

Brake late, turn in, > slow in FAST out.
The heavier and faster car you drive, the MORE you have to observe it.

Try 500bhp behind you, & see how you get on with a "locked diff"!

The proof is, ALL the modern lightweight Jaguar E type boys now moved from Salisbury LSD plate type axles, to Modern multi plate type LSD with variable ramp angles.
The results are blistering fast, ESPECIALLY in the wet!

60-40
70-30
ramp angles are the BIZ.

Forget locked diffs, they belong to the museum or in the back of lightweight cart.


(NB, if you want a LSD it takes some time to make up, and you have to choose a ratio, not just mention "I would like one".)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2011 08:27AM by yellowbookroad.
Kma4444 Avatar
Kevin Allen
Anderson, South Carolina, USA   usa

Yeah, of all the things I was called in the Spit, slow wasn't one of them.

In the ALMS Viper, we got the car from Canaska with a spool, it was the way we had to run it initially as we didn't have the $9k for the viscous one that Oreca was by then running. luckily, one fell off the truck at Daytona and we put it in the car at the track. It was magic and transformed the car.

My Trans-Am car had to run the locker or a spool, it had a locker in it when I got it and I hated it. I had planned on swapping to a spool and setting up around it and am convinced on that chassis it would have been faster. Recently I spent three weeks in Denmark and did a couple races in American GT1/ Trans-Am cars and that chassis worked very well with the locker. I would leave the lockers in those cars because they were very good.

My point, every car is different, every driver is different. I have run some 200+hp FWD cars with the Torsen and they were absolutely seamless. I also run one in my sportsracer that again is seamless, you never notice the diff at all. Again, blanket statements are as useless as arguing on the internet.

The OP wanted opinions and those are mine. My choice for what he is doing is keep the welded one for racing and get a good plate style or secondly the Quaife for autocross.
Robert Coates
Franklin, KY, USA   usa

In reply to a post by yellowbookroad
The only worthwhile LSD is a PLATE TYPE.
There are 2 done in the UK now, (Tranx and Gripper), and another salisbury was remanufactured in Australia for the dolomite.

Where can I find a Tran X differential for the Spitfire?
Robert Coates
Franklin, KY, USA   usa

In reply to a post by yellowbookroad Quaife are rubbish. They simply don't work.

May I ask why they don't work?

From talking to a couple other people, I am getting the impression that helical style differentials are better for daily drivers but clutch types are better for track cars.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2011 05:10PM by 96DXCivic.
GT6Steve Avatar
Steve Smith
North Las Vegas, Nevada, USA   usa

To say simply "They don't work" is too strong a condemnation. They work well within their limitations. As stated they are a torque biasing style of diff. And as said they will behave much like an open diff on ice or if a wheel is in the air.

It is still noticably better because of the biasing but NOT as effective as other types of LSD's. I have one in the GT6 and it was an improvement back in the day. I don't use it any more on the racer because of the issues noted. I'd have no qualms using it on a street car.

IMHO...
yellowbookroad Avatar
Gareth T
Somewhere in, Estonia   est
1970 Triumph 2.5 PI MkII "Permanently NICKED Nickname"

In reply to a post by 96DXCivic
In reply to a post by yellowbookroad
The only worthwhile LSD is a PLATE TYPE.
There are 2 done in the UK now, (Tranx and Gripper), and another salisbury was remanufactured in Australia for the dolomite.

Where can I find a Tran X differential for the Spitfire?

Tranx only make LSD for the larger Triumph axle (Dolomite/TR4 IRS).

Funny that most of the people contributing here have NEVER EVER tried a plate type axle in the Spitfire....so the comments here are about as valid as piloting a plane when all you have ever done is drive a bus.

I can assure you, having had the Salisbury in road cars for many years (ie including the issues of maintaining it), the Torsen design is complete crap, by comparison.
No proper locking action, no balancing the car on the throttle, no feel at the steering, and pointless in a car that lifts wheels.
(like all proper rally cars do)

The thing about a plate type LSD is that it's fully tuneable.
You can set it up tight, and the car will swop ends real quick just like you would with those utterly useless welded axles, or set it up nice and loose and it's innocuous.
Modern ones have different cam angles and progression settings.

Reading the stuff I saw here, it seems as though some people think they can drive..thumbs up smiley

Go figure!
Have you seen what they use on hillclimb cars?
Judd powered F3000 Single seaters? (Hewland transaxles)
Modified saloon cars on hillclimbs? (Viscous LSD)
Historic D type/E type/Aston Martin?

That stuff is all FAR quicker and more competitive than any old Triumph, yet in some weird way we get this story yet again about "all cars are different".
(yep we like to race really MEDIOCRE cars don't we!)

Yep there's slow ones, and there's fast ones.

You don't go fast by locking 2 of the rear wheels together, unless you driving a 65bhp, 250cc kart doing 18 000rpm....and believe me that's enough to scare the Sh..ts out of anyone!

Take a look at this and you'll see just how WAY OUT you are!




Nutters let loose!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2011 01:54PM by yellowbookroad.
spitlist Avatar
Joe Curry
Sahuarita, AZ, USA   usa

I see Gareth is now back to his usual tactics, trash everybody else's opinion to try and PROVE that his is the only one that is valid.

The fact here is that there are woefully few options for LSD in Spitfires. I have a Corvette Diff in Tiny Tim, so I think I actually can speak with a little authority regarding how plate type diffs perform. And they do well. I previously had a Quaife when I had the Spit Diff and it is less effective but not as much as Gareth would have you believe. My worst problems had more to do with having to push the dar off the course wnen something broke rather than turning in slower times.

I also tried a welded diff (challanging to get accustomed to, and a bear to maneuver around the pits), and the much publicised "Phantom Grip" which truly is "Phantom".. I could not tell any difference between that and an open diff.

And finally, Gareth, We really do have good Designers, Mechanics and Drivers here on this side of the pond. Europe does not have a monopoly on those things.

Joe
britsnspits Avatar
Michael Stoliker
Bethlehem, PA, USA   usa
1976 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "The Phoenix"
1978 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Lucky"

What's all this talk about LSD? What is this, the Sixties?
90632D Avatar
Fox Trapper
Various, USA   usa

A locker is vastly different than a locked differential. I've driven both.

The welded or locked differential is nicely consistent, and once you figure out how to slip your rear tires, it turns well enough. Not fun to shove around in the shop or paddock. Certainly eats tires! Driveable on the street, but you will get tickets for spinning your wheels.

Then there is the locker, it's triggered locking of an otherwise open differential. The action is sudden and violent. Prone to throwing the car sideways if you are in a turn when it locks. Most lockers lock-up the differential when the driveshaft is under load (throttle on or engine braking), and when the axles are matching their spin. This means you're open differential going into a turn. But as the inside wheel lifts and starts to spin, the differential suddenly locks when the axles match spin, tending to break the rear end free when it happens. Lovely. Locking a rear wheel hard braking tends to result in the most remarkable pogosticking of the rear end of the car.

Of all the differentials I've tried, the locker is the one I like the least. Especially for street driving. Good on a drag strip I guess. Wonderful on rock crawlers. Manually lockable differentials are great for tractors.

One that I've come to like for street cars is the viscous differential. Don't know of one for a Spitfire, and I doubt it exists. They are a very mild clutch-pack limited slip differential. They work as an open differential until you start spinning a tire. Then it heats up, expands, and slightly engages the limited slip clutches, giving a bit of power to the non-spinning wheel. Very gentle, very mild action. But also quite effective, in a very mild manner. Sorta like aspirin for differentials.
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