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67 Spitfire - Ignition location - is it in wrong place?

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carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
Matt, that ring looking thing that is sitting above your ignition switch is part of the signal self cancel mechanism. So, if they don't cancel look at that.



'S all for now
Vic

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Yellowhawk Valley Avatar
walla walla, washington, USA   USA
1969 Triumph Spitfire "Walla Walla"
1969 Triumph Spitfire "Portland"
1972 Triumph Spitfire MkIV "Spokane"
1975 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Dayton"    & more
In reply to # 1501663 by carChips Matt, that ring looking thing that is sitting above your ignition switch is part of the signal self cancel mechanism. So, if they don't cancel look at that.

Actually, that is part of the main harness retainer ring, it just slips around the column to hold the wires up against the tube. The cancelling piece just has one tight bump on it.


Quote: Do understand that my perspective is that of a preservationist. If you don't care about originality of your car, just go get a new column, some wire and a switch to put in the dash! It's all good either way! grinning smiley

Andrew, I have never seen a Mk2 or Mk3 with a locking column so removing that piece would be more along the lines of originality wouldn't it? I tend to lean your way too so I want to suggest to move it to original setup when possible, along with general repair.smileys with beer

Are the original turn signal pieces and parts and head light flasher in their normal plinths on the left and right sides of the column? I keep wondering what that corrugated plastic tube is carrying and where it lead to and from. It certainly is not original either. If you remove the entire switch assembly you will not have an issue with the column locking as that part will come off with the rest of the mechanism.. That piece is held on with tamper proof bolts (screwed in and then broken off as shown in your recent 3rd photo) so you will have to drill and use an easy out of some sort to remove them. The lock piece will come out with the housing.
I also agree with whomever it was up above that suggested pulling the whole column out to the bench to work with it. It is fairly easy to get out and a heck of a of a lot easier to work with on the bench.

The photo is stolen/borrowed from John Thomasons' book "Guide to Originality". Yopur Mk 2 should be pretty close except for the steering wheel being on the right (correct) side, well, the left side that is. As shown, the ignition is on the far side away from the wheel but I have no idea of they changed it for the LHD cars so it would still be over there and the choke closer to hand.

Dan


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20171206_210612.jpg

spitfire50 Avatar
spitfire50 Paul Mugford
Rochester, N.H., USA   USA
In reply to # 1501680 by Yellowhawk Valley
The photo is stolen/borrowed from John Thomasons' book "Guide to Originality". Yopur Mk 2 should be pretty close except for the steering wheel being on the right (correct) side, well, the left side that is. As shown, the ignition is on the far side away from the wheel but I have no idea of they changed it for the LHD cars so it would still be over there and the choke closer to hand.

Dan
Dan,
The normal ignition switch location on a Mk2 Spitfire is on the side of the dash away from the steering wheel. LHD= switch on right, RHD= switch on left.
All the best,
Paul

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TinDrum Herald Ma
cologne, NRW, Germany   DEU
In reply to # 1501663 by carChips Matt, that ring looking thing that is sitting above your ignition switch is part of the signal self cancel mechanism. So, if they don't cancel look at that.

That ring belongs inside the upper column mounting clamp and should hold the column a bit "thighter".
The wires from the column mounted switches run through a chanel,through that clamp, and is allready missing in the pictures.

Herald

Herald948 Avatar
Herald948 Andrew Mace
East Nassau, upstate NY, USA   USA
In reply to # 1501680 by Yellowhawk Valley
Quote: Do understand that my perspective is that of a preservationist. If you don't care about originality of your car, just go get a new column, some wire and a switch to put in the dash! It's all good either way! grinning smiley

Andrew, I have never seen a Mk2 or Mk3 with a locking column so removing that piece would be more along the lines of originality wouldn't it? I tend to lean your way too so I want to suggest to move it to original setup when possible, along with general repair.smileys with beer

I really don't (didn't) want to raise the temperature on this discussion, but I will say that I wish people would read what I have posted previously in this thread. A fair number of Spitfires (and other Triumphs) that were delivered on the European Continent -- particularly Germany but probably other countries as well -- to US service personnel and/or Personal Export Delivery customers were assembled in Belgium and often equipped with equipment necessary to meet unique requirements of a country such as Germany. That equipment typically included a steering column lock, along with various minor differences in lighting specification. With the latter, one of the most notable (which I have seen on later-1960s Spitfires, GT6s and Heralds) is a special plinth on the rear valence that held not one but TWO L467 number plate lamps, each with only a single bulb. In looking at current photos (in his profile) of the car in question, it is apparent that the rear end likely has been damaged and repaired; note that there is NO number plate lamp in place.

Some, if not all, of these market-specific changes are documented to some degree in some editions of the factory Spare Parts Catalogue. They tend to be far less well documented in books such as Thomason's tome, which is a fine book for home market Spitfires but rather sadly lacking in detail for North American spec. cars. I find that ironic, seeing as more Spitfires were sold in North American than anywhere else. winking smiley

So one last time: there's a 99.44% chance that the steering column lock IS original to this particular car. If it is not to the owner's preference, or if it is beyond repair, then throw a key switch on the dashboard. As I said before, either way -- it's all good!



http://www.fairpoint.net/~herald948/database/

Lizzard d id
san jose, ca, USA   USA
In reply to # 1501739 by Herald948 So one last time: there's a 99.44% chance that the steering column lock IS original to this particular car.
I'm not so sure , did the factory have locking columns in hand in 1967 ?

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:q1c4egjxk4sJ:citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.641.2402%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf+&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b

Any chance it went to Germany and had the column lock installed there ? Pointing to the left is a German thing , column locks in 67 was a German thing , so I wonder .

.......................
Now that I think about it , Triumph probably had them for other cars that were being sent to Germany , they might have done a transplant from a Herald or something .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-07 01:50 PM by Lizzard.

spitfire50 Avatar
spitfire50 Paul Mugford
Rochester, N.H., USA   USA
Lizzard,
A locking steering column was optional in most markets. Apparently it was standard in Germany, at least that is the way the spare parts catalogue reads.
Thomason lists the steering column lock as an available option for the Spitfire Mk1-3. After that it was standard, and in the USA it became standard when the safety laws required it to be.
All the best,
Paul

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Matts67spit Avatar
Matts67spit Matt Burrow
Phoenix, Arizona, USA   USA
1967 Triumph Spitfire MkII "Silver Bullet"
Hi Guys,

Thanks for your help. I just found my replacement Moss ignition switch, and lo and behold, the thing has 4 sets of prongs on the back, whereas the current ignition switch has 3 bolts/nuts with wires attached.

No instructions from Moss, and not sure which wires go where.

Can anyone help?

Thanks!


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old current ignition.jpeg    37.4 KB
old current ignition.jpeg

new ignition switch.jpeg    18.8 KB
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Lizzard d id
san jose, ca, USA   USA
In reply to # 1501833 by Matts67spit Hi Guys,

Thanks for your help. I just found my replacement Moss ignition switch, and lo and behold, the thing has 4 sets of prongs on the back, whereas the current ignition switch has 3 bolts/nuts with wires attached.

No instructions from Moss, and not sure which wires go where.

Can anyone help?

Do you have a dvm / multimeter ?

If you do then you can id what is going on inside the switch .
1 = power
2 = on
3 = crank
4 = accessories

If you do an ohms test , the crank will show near zero ohms only when the key is turned to the "crank" position .
The on will show near zero ohms when switched "on" with the key to the on position .
The accessories will show near zero ohms when the key is turned to the accessories position .

Once you see what is going on inside the switch by using a dvm / multimeter , you can then use that knowledge to wire it up .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-07 09:04 PM by Lizzard.

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Matts67spit Avatar
Matts67spit Matt Burrow
Phoenix, Arizona, USA   USA
1967 Triumph Spitfire MkII "Silver Bullet"
Hi Lizzard - unfortunately I don't. Should I just hold off and call Moss in the am?

I still have a carb rebuild in front of me to perform,..that will keep me busy tonight :-)

Lizzard d id
san jose, ca, USA   USA
If you are going to work on an electrical system I highly suggest a dvm / multimeter . You can buy them for next to nothing these days .

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Anti-Interference-Anti-Oil-And-Waterproof-Digital-Full-Protection-Multimeter-S5/401398243830?hash=item5d753321f6:g:zzAAAOSw-URZrlgx

I remember long long ago when I wanted to get a ten amp meter , but it cost so much , so I just got the less expensive 2 amp . Now a ten amp meter is dirt cheap .
Back , way back , i sent in dvms for repairs . Now just toss it and get another .

Yellowhawk Valley Avatar
walla walla, washington, USA   USA
1969 Triumph Spitfire "Walla Walla"
1969 Triumph Spitfire "Portland"
1972 Triumph Spitfire MkIV "Spokane"
1975 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Dayton"    & more
Matt:
Could you post a couple of pictures of the steering wheel and dash area from a little further out so we can see the whole general setup?

Andrew: Sorry about the response, I was thinking that you too were as much guessing and making good suggestions. I had no previous information about those markets requiring locking ignition that early on, nor have I ever seen any parts lists that show that sort of lock on the early cars. It was not that I disbelieved your comments at all, not that I had not read the earlier ones. I just misunderstood the comment and direction and thought you had reversed yourself.
I appreciate the new to me information and hope we can uncover more of the various market specific options and requirements.
Can anyone provide some diagrams or photos of the variations that we could post for Matt and others that might have some of these sort of alternate style cars? Perhaps there are some members from Belgium or German markets that have some access to these designs for photos/


Matt: as for the wiring on the switch, I am guessing that the current one does not have an accessory position, thus only three wires/
Dan

Photo grabbed from a Spitfire4/Mk2 parts book. da



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-12-07 10:08 PM by Yellowhawk Valley.


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locking ignition.jpg

TinDrum Herald Ma
cologne, NRW, Germany   DEU
There should be the lucas part# stamped on the side.

The org. was connected like this.

Herald


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Ignitionswitch-dashboard.jpg

spitfire50 Avatar
spitfire50 Paul Mugford
Rochester, N.H., USA   USA
Matt,
Brown= power in, white/red = crank out (solenoid) white = power out (supplies white wires and fuse with green wires).
On the switch the position where a spring turns it back is, of course, crank. The next position counterclockwise is run. This is the position the switch returns to when you release it from crank. You want all wires connected in crank. and only the white/red not connected in run.
All the best,
Paul

gfe05111952 Avatar
gfe05111952 George Earwaker
Falls Church, Virginia, USA   USA
Matt, Here are a couple of scans showing the wiring diagram and diagram key for the Spitfire4 (1 & 2) from one of my manuals. They should be helpful along with the advise from other Forum members.



George
1967 Triumph GT6
1967 Triumph Spitfire4 Mk2
1968 Triumph Spitfire Mk3


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Spitfire4 Mk1 & 2.jpg

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