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Phasing

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Phasing
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colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
my condensed version: for my Allison XR700, Lucas dizzy.

phas·ing ˈfāziNG
noun: the action of dividing a large task or process into several stages. "the phasing of the overall project". The relationship between the timing of two or more events, or THE ADJUSTMENT OF THIS RELATIONSHIP.

We don't have Xray vision, so it would be our best guess, Unless you drill a hole (used dist cap) and adjust the distributor so the rotor is pointing at the center of the cap's #1 wire's hole.

1. set #1 cylinder at TDC, adjust dist to phase rotor's tip to center of cap's #1 wire hole (per mark centered below #1 wire, OR drill old cap to see rotor alignment to #1)
2. don't move crank from TDC. Fit shutter and eye into dist, set eye's center (raised mark) to the leading edge of a window. Check shutter clearance in eye, tighten screw.
3. mount xr700 box, connect wires, ground to block.
4. replace drilled cap and start engine.
5. set dist's timing per manual (or set at 10 BTDC) by timing light and dist adjustment.


I have read some threads, and there are questions about what is phasing.
I checked my Lucas 45DE4, made the adjustments and have good results after correcting the phase.

I bypassed the ballasted wire, ran 12 volts to the coil and XR700. The coil is firing the plugs with more power now (10-13-2017)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-13 10:46 PM by colodad.

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Attachments:
cwIMG_1702 crank at TDC, phase is off.jpg    36.1 KB
cwIMG_1702 crank at TDC, phase is off.jpg

cwIMG_17052 crank at TDC, rotor phased to #1.jpg    28.5 KB
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cwIMG_1601 trigger eye.jpg    34.6 KB
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cwIMG_1602 eye's center at window's leading edge.jpg    30 KB
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lef2wander Avatar
lef2wander Gold Member James Thomas
hatfield, ma, USA   USA
I believe the window is the slot cut in the disk.
The part with the 2 photo cells. 1 transmitter and 1 receiver, Is the optical sensor. The sign of phasing being incorrect, after some time(depends on how bad it is), is that the rotor cap electrodes will show a build up of oxide on the sides. One side or the other.

If it's really bad from the get go it will run like crap.

Yours looks good, just the way it is.

Different names for the parts though, from crane.

The slotted disk is a photo interrupter. The slots in it are called windows in my industry. The cut out in the sensor is called a apature. Tomatoe tomato



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2017-10-11 12:50 PM by lef2wander.

Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, British Columbia, Canada   CAN
I just think words are getting in the way ;-)

Basically you need the trigger to fire the spark when the rotor arm is pointing at a cap terminal.
(Always nice, no matter what ignition you havegrinning smiley )

Draw a line down from the cap terminal onto the distributor body. Then you will kow where the rotor arm should be pointing when the cap is removed.

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clshore Carter Shore
Beverly Hills, Florida, USA   USA
Ignition rotor caps and rotors are designed to cope with a wide range of 'phasing errors'.
The rotor tab must be wide enough to accommodate phasing variations,
without being so wide that two plugs can receive spark at the same time.
After more than 100 years, this has all been worked out pretty well.

claytoncnc Avatar
claytoncnc Gold Member Marcus Clayton
Melbourne, Ivanhoe, Australia   AUS
It is only an issue when using aftermarket ignition where the chopper wheel (what I call it anyway) can fit over the points cam in any orientation.

Does not arise with points ignition, as cam and rotor have a pre determined relationship.

Having said that I was caught out by a phasing error on the Clubman we dynoed a few weeks ago, and it took me some time to spot the error, with a mysterious high speed miss, and inconsistent timing readings. That car has a vintage (or historic) Piranha system fitted, probably 30 years old.

colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
shutter (aka chopper and others) to shaft fits one way.

This is my daily driver. 5000-6000 miles a year.
The improvement was not as if a missing cylinder come back to life, but after getting the phase corrected there was enough of an improvement how the engine ran to post a thread on it.


Attachments:
cwIMG_1771 wide and 3 narrow tabs.JPG    36.4 KB
cwIMG_1771 wide and 3 narrow tabs.JPG

cwIMG_1770 wide and 3 narrow for shutter.JPG    30.4 KB
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Growe58 Avatar
Growe58 Greg Rowe
Hatfield, PA, USA   USA
I miss my old Alison unit. Gave me 20 years of service before dying a couple of years ago. I checked the phasing once and it was spot on and I never worried about it again. I should have bought another one instead of the Pertronix.

I’m surprised that I am the first one commenting on this: “I'm using the ballasted wire as required. I have a 12V coil, 3 ohms.” - it sounds to me like you have the wrong coil, you should have 1.5 ohm coil if you’re running ballast wire. Note that the Alison doesn’t care if you have a 6 volt or 12 volt coil unlike the Pertronix.

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Rick in Miami Avatar
Rick in Miami Rick Z
Miami, Florida, USA   USA
1973 Triumph GT6 MkIII "Spit 6"
1974 Jensen Healey
Pertronix doesn't care either as long as you provide its red wire with a dedicated 12v (from the white side of your fusebox or ignition switch) instead of hooking it up to the + side of your coil.

Rick

colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
It was my understanding, a true 12V coil will have a 3 ohm primary winding. Testing with a meter between the + & - terminals.
A 12V with external resistor coil will Have a 1.5 ohm primary winding hooked in series with a 1.5 ohm external resistor to end up with the same 3 ohms total resistance.
The advantage of the coil that uses an external resistor, is that you can wire it to bypass the external resistor to make extra hot spark for starting, then having the resistor back in line for running to give long point life. This was pretty much standard equipment on all automotive 12V point type ignition systems.

If this is incorrect, my coil is mislabeled, it does not state having the internal resistor.

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lef2wander Avatar
lef2wander Gold Member James Thomas
hatfield, ma, USA   USA
In reply to # 1491624 by colodad It was my understanding, a true 12V coil will have a 3 ohm primary winding. Testing with a meter between the + & - terminals.
A 12V with external resistor coil will Have a 1.5 ohm primary winding hooked in series with a 1.5 ohm external resistor to end up with the same 3 ohms total resistance.
The advantage of the coil that uses an external resistor, is that you can wire it to bypass the external resistor to make extra hot spark for starting, then having the resistor back in line for running to give long point life. This was pretty much standard equipment on all automotive 12V point type ignition systems.

If this is incorrect, my coil is mislabeled, it does not state having the internal resistor.
A little off base.
There are 6v coil cars and 12v coil cars, mixing it up, is a no no.

Id It runs on a 6v coil, it's started with 12v. Getting the 12v is done by passing the ballast (extra 1.5ohms). Essentially when not bypassed for starting, the ballast resistor eats up 6v in the form of heat. Which is the way resistor work.

Keeping 12v to a 6v coil all the time causes it to heat up and kills it. Feeding 6v to a 12v coil all the time cause it to grossly under preform.

Growe58 Avatar
Growe58 Greg Rowe
Hatfield, PA, USA   USA
In reply to # 1491624 by colodad It was my understanding, a true 12V coil will have a 3 ohm primary winding. Testing with a meter between the + & - terminals.
A 12V with external resistor coil will Have a 1.5 ohm primary winding hooked in series with a 1.5 ohm external resistor to end up with the same 3 ohms total resistance.
The advantage of the coil that uses an external resistor, is that you can wire it to bypass the external resistor to make extra hot spark for starting, then having the resistor back in line for running to give long point life. This was pretty much standard equipment on all automotive 12V point type ignition systems.

If this is incorrect, my coil is mislabeled, it does not state having the internal resistor.

I may have misinterpreted your original post. It sounded to me like you were running a 12 volt 3 ohm coil with a ballast wire. That would give you a weak spark while running. But the above sounds like you know better!

colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
In reply to # 1491632 by Growe58
In reply to # 1491624 by colodad It was my understanding, a true 12V coil will have a 3 ohm primary winding. Testing with a meter between the + & - terminals.
A 12V with external resistor coil will Have a 1.5 ohm primary winding hooked in series with a 1.5 ohm external resistor to end up with the same 3 ohms total resistance.
The advantage of the coil that uses an external resistor, is that you can wire it to bypass the external resistor to make extra hot spark for starting, then having the resistor back in line for running to give long point life. This was pretty much standard equipment on all automotive 12V point type ignition systems. If this is incorrect, my coil is mislabeled, it does not state having the internal resistor.

I may have misinterpreted your original post. It sounded to me like you were running a 12 volt 3 ohm coil with a ballast wire. That would give you a weak spark while running. But the above sounds like you know better!

Greg, no you didn't misinterpret, I did say I am running a 12v 3 ohm coil with a ballasted wire.

The ballasted wire is required for the XR700, can't handle 12 volts constant power.

I have 8 volts to the coil after the solenoid drops out (12+ volts when engaged).
The correct meter reading was 3.2, my meter correction is .5 so I have 2.7 ohms on the primary, it's a high energy coil.
I'm not saying this setup is correct. This is how it was when I got the car 28 yrs ago. The OPUS was terminated by the garage working on foreign cars, they installed the XR700 and coil.

If this coil needs a dedicated full 12 volts to run correctly, then maybe I need to make that change. The XR would still need to be connected to the coil's negative terminal to fire the plugs.

My first post said some people were not understanding Pasing, If some info is incorrect and misleading it needs corrected. I have no problem with that. I would like to keep it simple.

Rick in Miami Avatar
Rick in Miami Rick Z
Miami, Florida, USA   USA
1973 Triumph GT6 MkIII "Spit 6"
1974 Jensen Healey
Calvin,

I have been running my XR700 with 12v for over 10 years with no ill effects. My coil has always been a 1.5 ohm taking its power via a 1.5 ohm ballast resister.

The Crane instructions do suggest using an external ballast resistor in the event that the electronics module runs hot.

Rick


Attachments:
Capture XR700 Ballast.JPG    14.4 KB
Capture XR700 Ballast.JPG

colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
In reply to # 1491700 by Rick in Miami Calvin,

I have been running my XR700 with 12v for over 10 years with no ill effects. My coil has always been a 1.5 ohm taking its power via a 1.5 ohm ballast resister.

The Crane instructions do suggest using an external ballast resistor in the event that the electronics module runs hot. Rick

I will connect my XR to unballasted 12v, check if it overheats.

Your XR700 is connected to 12v but your 1.5 ohm coil is connected to ballast.

Greg commented: "running a 12 volt 3 ohm coil with a ballast wire. That would give you a weak spark while running."

So switching my 12v coil to unballasted 12v power, my coil will supply the strong spark it was designed to do.

Rick in Miami Avatar
Rick in Miami Rick Z
Miami, Florida, USA   USA
1973 Triumph GT6 MkIII "Spit 6"
1974 Jensen Healey
Quote: So switching my 12v coil to unballasted 12v power, my coil will supply the strong spark it was designed to do.

Correct

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