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spitfire oil cooler

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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, British Columbia, Canada   CAN
Sorry no part #, but I was looking at my wifes (at the time) 2005 VW Golf 2 liter and thought Hmmm!
These things seem a common component on many gas VW's .
I used the stock VW mounting tube, but I can't remember if I re-threaded the end that connects to the engine block.
The heat exchanger has bent or angled coolant supply tubes that are less than ideal. I would have changed that, but as the unit is made of aluminium, and my MIG is not set up for that.
I will post pics when I get more familiar with this site, and the car is in winter storage right now anyway. But I will post details.
As I said though, the Heat exchanger is for quicker oil warm up, and just for fun. NOT for the need to cool my oil.
Which is Delvac 1300 15w-40 BTW

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colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
Tony, this VW cooler was mentioned pg 1 ? is this the cooler, or look like it?


Attachments:
Engine Oil Cooler - 1AEOC00127.JPG    20.6 KB
Engine Oil Cooler - 1AEOC00127.JPG

Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, British Columbia, Canada   CAN
In reply to # 1352928 by colodad Tony, this VW cooler was mentioned pg 1 ? is this the cooler, or look like it?

That's the one, though I prefer to call it a heat exchanger.
Here is another one (made in China!)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aluminum-Oil-Cooler-for-Audi-A4-VW-Jetta-Golf-Passat-With-Gasket-OE-078117021A-/161706603354?hash=item25a676f35a:g:bmkAAOSweW5VVuB5&vxp=mtr

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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, British Columbia, Canada   CAN
In reply to # 1352928 by colodad Tony, this VW cooler was mentioned pg 1 ? is this the cooler, or look like it?


Yes, that is it.
Here is a 'made in China ' versionhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/Aluminum-Oil-Cooler-for-Audi-A4-VW-Jetta-Golf-Passat-With-Gasket-OE-078117021A-/161706603354?hash=item25a676f35a:g:bmkAAOSweW5VVuB5&vxp=mtr

Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, British Columbia, Canada   CAN
For what it's worth.
My car is fitted with an oil temp gauge in combination with oil pressure.
It's the Smiths combo oil pressure, coolant temp gauge from an MG Midget but with the coolant temp sensor fitted to a tapped spud into the oil pan.

Highest temp I have seen was 220F after one hour of 80 mph plus with my wife and a load of luggage.

It normally takes 15 to 20 minutes of normal driving for oil temp to reach 175F. I was expecting the warm up to be quicker, as this is only a slight improvement on before the heat exchanger was fitted.
I think the problem is the water pump return pipe.
This is the metal pipe that runs behind the exhaust manifold to the back of the water pump housing. It returns coolant from the cockpit heater and the inlet manifold, and since I 'T' ed into the heater return, it takes return coolant from the oil heat exchanger also.

So, in cool weather (when I most want more rapid oil warm up) the coolant return pipe might be overloaded with return coolant coming from the exchanger, the manifold and the heater!
I have fitted a turn off valve on the inlet manifold heat*, and of course, I can control the cockpit heater. and in controling this, I can improve oil warm up. But this is less than ideal.
I plan to make a larger diameter returne pipe (1/2"winking smiley and I hope this will improve flow and provide more oil heat exchange.

* Hot coolant for my heater comes from an outlet at the rear upper face of the cyl head, as can be seen on 1147cc Heralds and Spitfires. Not an add-on from the manifold heat.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-05 11:57 PM by Tonyfixit.

colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
In reply to # 1350904 by grumpicus
In reply to # 1350836 by colodad
In reply to # 1350826 by claytoncnc
My 1147 with no cooler gets caned just about every weekend, and after about 30 minutes more or less flat out, consistently above 5000 rpm, and usually in an ambient of 75-85 degF the coolant is around 195 -200F, I do not know the oil temperature, but the stinking hot idle pressure is around 15 psi. These pressures have remained pretty constant over several years and many oil changes.

I have considered fitting a cooler, but on my small bearing engine at least, I am not at all sure it is necessary.

hot idle around 15 psi at the dist bushing oil passage tap where the gauges are normalyl connected, but down stream, at the rear main, could be 6 psi.

Calvin - as you've already got a second sender & gauge - could you also please check the oil pressure at the front of the gallery (No.1 main bearing takeoff point), and compare that with the reading at the oil pump bush? The reason I'm asking is that this reading would be taken very close to the point at which oil flows into the gallery from the oil filter, and should give the highest pressure reading obtainable. If the oil pump bush is the cause of the restriction, then I would expect the reading from the front to be around 6psi higher than the reading at the usual oil pressure takeoff point (as this is at the mid-point of the oil passageway around the bush), and maybe 12 psi higher than the reading at the rear. I must admit I'm a little surprised that there is such a restriction at the oil pump bush, as the combined cross-sectional area of the two passageways around the bush is greater than the cross-sectional area of the gallery itself. If that is the case, I think I'll be reaching for the rotary grinder and enlarging the hole in the block around the narrow section of the oil pump bush - assuming I can get the grinder in there!

Steve,
I can now answer that question, "the oil pressure at the front of the gallery (No.1 main bearing takeoff point), and compare that with the reading at the oil pump bush?". The male 5/16-24 to female 1/8NPT fittings was the challange, and another 100# sender and gauge so I kept the 80# sender & gauge on the No.3 main bearing takeoff point, and moved the 100# sender & gauge to the No.1 main bearing takeoff point. With the engine up to temp, rpms 900 up to 3000 RPMs as my Feb tests/photos, my new pressure tests done yesterday show that No.1 & No.2 are indeed the same pressure. Opening up the passage around the dist/oil pump shaft bushing might fix the pressure drop problem, increasing the pressure to the rocker assembly as well. Perhaps the higher pressure was needed to lube #2 & #3 rod bearings, but I have already opened up my center main oil passage to 5/16", so fitting a line from #1 to #3 would replace grinding for mine, and it shouldn't need a restrictor.


Attachments:
CW, IMG_1428 No.3 main bearing takeoff point.jpg    56.4 KB
CW, IMG_1428 No.3 main bearing takeoff point.jpg

CW, IMG_1450 checking oil pressure No.1 main bearing takeoff point.jpg    78 KB
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CW, IMG_1467 oil pressures, No.1 main (top), No.3 main (bottom).jpg    45.3 KB
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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, British Columbia, Canada   CAN
I admit to being more than perplexed by the differential in oil oil pressure within the oil gallery.
The very idea of an oil gallery is for even oil distribution. I have never heard of any oil pump bushings causing a restriction within the gallery!

10 psi between two gauges? What happens if you switch the gauge sending unit connections around?

I'm thinking one or other of your gauges could be off??

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carChips Avatar
carChips Victor Harnish
Kelowna, BC, Canada   CAN
1933 MG Magnette
1973 Triumph Spitfire 1500 "Chip"
1989 GMC Sierra 1500 "Bush Truck"
Why did you need two gauges? Seems like an extra chance at an oil leak.



'S all for now
Vic

colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
Tony, Victor.
I was following along on the "1500 Distributor/oil pump shaft bush" subject http://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?8,1348167

My search started because it appeared I was having rocker assembly low oil flow, I was looking for the possible cause, I found there was a drop in pressure after the dist bushing. I did switch gauges, senders, and sender-gauge sets. Steve asked me to check the front. It took a while getting fittings to get that done. Today I was answering that question.. I started with the idiot light, added an electric 80 psi set, and maxed it out. Went to 100psi set. I found 86 psi at the dist bushing tap, dropping pressure downstream to the rear tap (a 5/16-24 plug), where I mounted the 80# sender & gauge set, That section feeds the 3rd cam journal and then the rear crank bearing, thrust washers, with a small passage continuing up to the rear cam journal into the rocker assembly through 4 machined flats . No wonder I had low flow up top. I think the 80# sender was knocked out of calibration from the repeated higher pressure hits. When I swapped it out to a new 80# sender (with a 7# warning connection) the new sender reads 2# lower pressure. On one of my recent Utah trips, after setting a few minutes, I restarted the engine, the rear tap gauge read only a few pounds, heat gauge was at 3/4, radiator fan kicked on. The oil light on the speedo didn't come on, because that sender shows higher pressure there. I'm fitting my audible warning to that 7# connection on the new sender, a lighted off switch and flasher. Might be over kill, I'll see how it goes this summer.

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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, British Columbia, Canada   CAN
Interesting.
I'm still not understanding how you get any significant oil pressure drop over the length of the oil gallery. The gallery diamiter is quite large, there should not be any frictional losses.

I mentioned that I recalled seeing Flats and a Scroll on the rear cam bearing. I consulted the official Triumph manual (not the Bentley version) and it describes the oil feed to the rockers:

"A reduced flow of oil to the hollow rocker shaft and valve gear is supplied from, and metered by, a scroll and rwo flats on the camshaft rear journal.
Oil from the valve gear spills to the cam followers and cams before returning to the sump"

I understand you have a large journal version of an early mkIII cam. (aftermarket?)
Could there be somthing amiss on the rear cam journal?

clshore Carter Shore
Beverly Hills, Florida, USA   USA
In reply to # 1353753 by Tonyfixit Interesting.
I'm still not understanding how you get any significant oil pressure drop over the length of the oil gallery. The gallery diamiter is quite large, there should not be any frictional losses.
...

'Hydraulic resistance' is well understood, ALWAYS occurs when a fluid flows through tubes or passages.
I posted the calculations somewhere, but basically the dimensions of the passage, the viscosity of the fluid,
and the volume of flow are used on a chart, to determine what pressure drop will result.
ISTR that it was about 6 psi for the Spitfire oil gallery.

colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
Tony,
start reading this subject, will explain in more detail : http://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?8,1348167

Correction: there are 2 flats on the cam's rear journal (not 4 as I had thought) I had a photo with 2 showing, but they are not opposite each other.
2nd photo shows the another side of the old cam, with only 1 of the 2 flats.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-09 09:58 PM by colodad.


Attachments:
CW, IMG_6874 camshaft, old & new, 2 flats visible.JPG    44 KB
CW, IMG_6874 camshaft, old & new, 2 flats visible.JPG

CW, IMG_5271 camshaft, old, 1 flat visible.JPG    39.1 KB
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Tonyfixit Avatar
Tonyfixit Tony M
Duncan, British Columbia, Canada   CAN
In reply to # 1353813 by colodad Tony,
start reading this subject, will explain in more detail : http://www.triumphexp.com/phorum/read.php?8,1348167

Correction: there are 2 flats on the cam's rear journal (not 4 as I had thought) I had a photo with 2 showing, but they are not opposite each other.
2nd photo shows the another side of the old cam, with only 1 of the 2 flats.

Thanks for the link Calvin, an interesting and Intriguing reading. It seems the calculated pressure drop through a 6" length of a 7/16" oil gallery should be about 1 psi (insignificant ) but you are seeing significantly more! Hmmmm!
Even so, I have seen these engines with far poorer oil pressure, supply more oil to the rockers.

I'll have to think on this one.

Silly question:
In your first start video, it was dry under the valve cover, and the cam follower buckets were dry!

How did you get motor oil into the engine, if you dod not pour it into the valve cover?

claytoncnc Avatar
claytoncnc Gold Member Marcus Clayton
Melbourne, Ivanhoe, Australia   AUS
Just to stir the pot a little more, the oil pressure loss to the crankshaft gallery, due to having to overcome the centrifugal force of the spinning crank becomes more significant as rpm rises.

It is given by the formula

OP = (1.15 X N^2 X MJ^2)/10^7 psi

where N=RPM, MJ= main bearing journal dia. (inches)

On a large journal engine (2.31 in) at 6000rpm, pressure loss is 22psi, at 7000rpm it is 30 psi
On a small journal engine (2.0 in) at 6000 rpm, pressure loss is 16.6 psi, at 7000rpm it is 22psi



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-03-09 11:45 PM by claytoncnc.

colodad Avatar
colodad Silver Member Calvin Williams
Grand Junction, Colorado, USA   USA
Silly question:
In your first start video, it was dry under the valve cover, and the cam follower buckets were dry!
How did you get motor oil into the engine, if you did not pour it into the valve cover?
[/quote]

I did pour it into the valve cover.
I applied assembly lube to the rod ends, followers, and rocker parts.
I ran a 25 minute cam break-in.
I pulled the cover to check valve clearances and the followers were all most dry of oil.
I was shocked that oil hadn't ran down those push rods, and filled the followers.

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