TRExp

TR7 & TR8 Forum

TR8 Overheating

Moss Motors
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor

bowen6951 Avatar
bowen6951 Gold Member rob bowen
Fontana, California, USA   USA
Hi Bob,
that is a great visual reality check. I should know all that but just didn't put it in perspective like that. When I built the car I tried to "fix" all the things that were problems for everyone else, like overheating. I didn't understand how I could have done it all the "right way" and still had issues, but there you just put it in black and white. Guess I need to pull the radiator and shroud and make some bigger holes. Thanks, Rob

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
tr7v8mike Avatar
tr7v8mike Gold Member Michael Booth
SYDNEY, NSW, Australia   AUS
Is there any reason the two top holes shouldn't be big triangles?

Bergie Bob Berg
Powell, Ohio, USA   USA
Mike...I would make the hole underneath the flap as big as you can so its just under sized from rubber flap dimensions- if the flap is rectangular then undersize a rectangle hole ...looking at your shroud you can get some in at the 4 corners....also I saw your heater hose connection to the water pump and you can get gates 5/8 inch heater hose with a pre molded 90 degree 4ft length with bend to eliminate an additional 90 hose fitting.....see link...should be available down under...maybe McKay rubber products...
Rob on your set up you should be able to add flaps on each side of the fan opening up more surface area which will help a lot! ...likely will have to pull the radiator to do that...



http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/400/465/465-28467.jpg

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
tr7v8mike Avatar
tr7v8mike Gold Member Michael Booth
SYDNEY, NSW, Australia   AUS
The big new radiator arrived and I'm re-thinking the layout of the cooling system (AC condenser, oil cooler and radiator) before getting on with the installation. I wouldn't mind a little creative feedback before I go ahead.

I had the oil cooler mounted in front of the radiator, but that means very hot air is being dragged through a fair chunk of the radiator. So I thought I would mount the cooler (14cm x 28cm) horizontally across the front of the wheel well, just below the headlight. This also has the advantage of directing some heat out of the engine bay. I would have to cut away a little of the inner wall of the wheel well, but not too much and the hoses would need very little modification. The issues are around airflow through the cooler:

1) Is ram air enough? Thermostat controlled electric pump and fan are still cooling the radiator in slow traffic.

2) If ram air is sufficient, there are a couple of ways to stream the air. First, I could re-mount the indicator and parking light unit and funnel air through that opening. Most efficient option, but really ugly look. Second, make an intake with the opening between the bumper bar and and front spoiler to funnel air onto the face of the cooler. I could seal that up to create some positive air pressure on the cooler.

3) Can you buy fan kits for oil coolers? Is that over-engineering?

I'm looking forward to some clever ideas.

Mike

TR8todd Avatar
TR8todd Todd Kishbach
Mass, USA   USA
1977 Triumph TR7 "Rally Fraud"
1978 Triumph TR8
1979 Triumph TR7
1980 Triumph TR8    & more
First off let me start by saying, I suggest you don't run an oil cooler unless you have an oil pump other that the original type in the front cover. Seen way too many Rover engines with coolers blow up. Only takes one loose fitting. The stock style pump just can't handle the extra stresses put on it moving oil to and from the cooler. Not to mention the stresses on the cam gear moving all that oil. No experience with the crank driven ones on the later engines, so those may be able to handle it. Normal air circulation should be enough to help cool the oil cooler if you use one. The only coolers I have ever seen with fans are mounted in places where air just doesn't circulate. NASCAR rear end coolers are the first ones like that come to mind. Also seen those coolers hooked up to NACA ducts in the side windows so instead of pushing air thru the cooler, the duct causes suction thru the cooler. Ducts and hoses will direct air wherever you need it to go. I'm real concerned about keeping my car cool, so I redesigned the entire front end. Don't plan on an oil cooler, but I need one for the transmission. Probably going to mount an 18" aluminum log cooler somewhere to handle the transmission cooling. The 6 speed Tremec trans has an internal pump and two oil lines that originally went to a cooler in the bottom of the rad. The Camaro I sourced the engine and trans from also had a water to oil cooler for the engine, and a power steering cooler. All overkill in my mind for the TR its going in.

tr7v8mike Avatar
tr7v8mike Gold Member Michael Booth
SYDNEY, NSW, Australia   AUS
That was a quick response. The engine is out of a Series 2 (P38) Range Rover. It has a high volume, crank-driven pump and an over sized sump to increase the oil volume so I think your concerns are addressed. Like you, I want to prevent overheating and I'm a bit obsessive about keeping good quality oil flowing around.

I'll see what everyone else comes up with but I'm leaning toward an intake below the bumper. I might need to cut a piece out of the spoiler where it curves up sharply.

Bergie Bob Berg
Powell, Ohio, USA   USA
Mike you can also look at the laminova oil/water cooler...very low pressure drop thru the cooler (see graphs link below) and you can mount off the bottom return 1.5 inch radiator hose that goes back to the water pump -in line against side rail....coolant heats up oil quickly and keeps oil at the coolant temp ....basically the cooler would sit about 5 or 6 inches from where sandwich plate takeoff mounts on the oil filter location off the oil pump...you would need about 5-6 inches feed and return line(10AN) for the oil cooler vs 5 or 6 feet feed and return line for the air/oil cooler setup in front of radiator...no effect on air flow thru radiator.... I will look to use a C43-90 unit with 10AN take offs for oil feed and return and its equivalent to a traditional 13-15 row air oil cooler...I'm figuring it out now and will install once I change out the coolant....there is not a lot of space to work with down there....take a look...its similar set up (oil/water cooler) on Todd's Camaro engine for the TR...

http://www.batinc.net/laminova.htm
http://97.74.32.155/files/laminova.pdf

the unit I have and will mount later this summer...
http://www.laminova.se/images/products/drw/SA00443.pdf

performance graph
http://www.laminova.se/cooler-guide?cat_id=1&cat=1&pid=2

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

Attachments:
laminova oil water cooler 1.jpg    40.8 KB
laminova oil water cooler 1.jpg

laminova oil water cooler 2.jpg    58.8 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
laminova oil water cooler 3.jpg    50.3 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
tr7v8mike Avatar
tr7v8mike Gold Member Michael Booth
SYDNEY, NSW, Australia   AUS
Hi Bob,
I've never seen these things. How to work out which one I need? I've got a remote filter so The plumbing is going to be interesting, but it looks like a really good solution. It took so long to get everything plumbed in it's going to heartbreaking to pull it out.
Mike

TR8todd Avatar
TR8todd Todd Kishbach
Mass, USA   USA
1977 Triumph TR7 "Rally Fraud"
1978 Triumph TR8
1979 Triumph TR7
1980 Triumph TR8    & more
Thats basically the same thing that comes stock in the Camaro. All you are doing is moving the heat from the oil to the coolant. It by itself doesn't remove any of the total heat developed by the engine. It will work well as an oil cooler, but don't look at it as another way to remove heat from the engine cooling package. For that you need a real cooler with fins and surface area. The one in the Camaro is a big source of leaks, and is a common warranty issue. Most of the guys running modified engines remove it or replace it with a standard cooler. I recently picked up the aftermarket block off plates for the oil lines and a plug for the coolant tapping in the block. Edit: Just went to Grassroots Motorsports and there is a similar relevant thread going on there. Those guys are smarter than us, so I suggest you follow along. Here is a link. https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/i-need-an-awesome-oil-cooler-for-my-sbf/129800/page1/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-06 05:53 AM by TR8todd.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
tr7v8mike Avatar
tr7v8mike Gold Member Michael Booth
SYDNEY, NSW, Australia   AUS
So it's better to keep the cooler and drain heat out of the engine bay?

Bergie Bob Berg
Powell, Ohio, USA   USA
Mike there is a calculator on the website somewhere but I called and talked to both Laminova techs (Sweden) and BAT US Laminova rep (Florida) to understand better and confirm sizing for my use ....the unit I have in the picture is a C43-90 with 10AN oil feed/return fittings and 38mm(1.5inch) push on fittings for coolant and it is equivalent to a 13-15 row oil cooler mocal 235 series (13inches wide x 2inch thick x 13 rows)...it looks small but the oil/water exchanger is very efficient vs the oil/air units.....good thing because there is not much room under the alternator where radiator return hose is located...will mount it below alternator on side rail where bottom return hose exits radiator on way up to water pump-happens to be right next to oil filter....cost was about $310.00 at Racer Parts Wholesale and I had a 10% discount so less than $300..(it still is assembled and ships from BAT-British American transfer in Florida-the US Mocal rep also) ....I compared other heat exchanger units available ie...C&R racing 13 plate unit but the oil pressure drop was to high vs the Laminova....
There is some trade off either route you go-air cooler you drop air flow across radiator/longer feed lines and oil/water exchanger you increase the coolant temps back to engine by the exchange but the electric fans should compensate for that by going on a little sooner and you get increased air flow without the oil cooler in front of radiator.... I would rather have the oil cooler feed/return lines as short as possible-inches vs feet and have a unit with lowest/minimal oil pressure drop which the laminova has (compare oil pressure drop on Laminova vs traditional Mocal 13 row 235 air/ oil cooler!) ...I will use a mishimoto thermostat 185 degree F (85C) sandwich plate (Model: MMOP-SPT) for the oil cooler take off which is a better unit than the mocal plate.... Basically would only heat this thing up >185F to use oil cooling at track days events...daily driving no oil cooling with thermostat in the unit and there is a small constant flow of oil to the cooler to ensure oil always flowing at temp to and from cooler(oil heats up a little quicker) and no shock to engine when it turns on..
nothing is easy and off the shelf with the rover v8!...

oil sandwich thermostat plate:
https://www.mishimoto.com/mishimoto-thermostatic-oil-sandwich-plate.html

https://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/1562/Laminar_Flow_Oil_to_Water_Heat_Exchangers


Mike a laminova local source for you "down under"
http://www.hi-flow.com/hp006aic.html

tr7v8mike Avatar
tr7v8mike Gold Member Michael Booth
SYDNEY, NSW, Australia   AUS
Hi Bob,
I don't know much about this system yet but it seems based on the assumption that the heat transferred to the coolant will be removed from the system by the radiator. Remember that I'm battling with heat for 7-8 months of the year and it can easily be a problem on daily driving. The new radiator might help, but if I mount the oil/ air cooler away from the radiator and direct air onto it, then heat is being taken out of the system by two separate mechanisms, rather than relying on the rad to do all of the work.
What do you reckon?

TR8todd Avatar
TR8todd Todd Kishbach
Mass, USA   USA
1977 Triumph TR7 "Rally Fraud"
1978 Triumph TR8
1979 Triumph TR7
1980 Triumph TR8    & more
Whatever heat you generate eventually needs to be transferred to the air. That tells me if you have a radiator that is marginal, you are better off with an oil to air cooler. No matter how you slice it, all that heat eventually has to get transferred to the air.

Bergie Bob Berg
Powell, Ohio, USA   USA
I agree with Todd...new radiator is a must with AC to take that issue off the table and supplement with oil cooling with your hot climate....if you go with air oil cooler mount away from condenser and radiator pathway if you can...close to oil filter take off as space will allow...

Darth V8R Avatar
Darth V8R Vance Navarrette
Beaverton, Oregon, USA   USA
1980 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
In reply to # 1462536 by tr7v8mike Hi Bob,
I don't know much about this system yet but it seems based on the assumption that the heat transferred to the coolant will be removed from the system by the radiator. Remember that I'm battling with heat for 7-8 months of the year and it can easily be a problem on daily driving. The new radiator might help, but if I mount the oil/ air cooler away from the radiator and direct air onto it, then heat is being taken out of the system by two separate mechanisms, rather than relying on the rad to do all of the work.
What do you reckon?
Mike:

It seems to me that you are running a warmed over engine, which increases cooling demands just by virtue of its increased power output.

I think placing the oil cooler in front of the radiator is a mistake under these conditions. The oil is running much hotter than your coolant (close to 300F under normal circumstances - but I don't know what your oil thermostat is set at, if you have one) and air exiting from the oil cooler is free to approach the oil temperature. Under these conditions, the air stream that passes through the oil cooler will ADD HEAT rather than remove heat from your engine coolant.

The correct placement would be to put it behind the radiator, or better yet, to place it to the side or under the radiator so that it has its own air stream.

If you place it behind the radiator, the air exiting the radiator would in theory be approaching the coolant temperature, say 200F. That would leave the air free to drop up to another 100F from your oil, which would be cooler than you need. You want your oil to be at least 260F so that water from gasoline combustion will be driven off from your oil. My point here is that it makes no sense to have the oil cooler in front of the radiator, and placing it in back of the radiator still leaves a large enough thermal gradient to cool your oil without difficulty.

Just a thought rattling around in my head from my days as an engineer.

Cheers,

Vance



1980 Platinum Metallic TR8, navy blue interior
Bare metal respray, Crower cam, raised compression
ported heads, modified Zenith carbs, 0.060" overbore

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

To add your reply, or post your own questions

Members Sign In   or   Create an Account

Registration is FREE and takes less than a minute!


Having trouble posting or changing forum settings?
Read the Forum Help (FAQ) or contact the webmaster