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Wiper Motor

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Wiper Motor
#1
  This topic is about my 1968 Triumph TR250
Aphyle2012 Avatar
Aphyle2012 Silver Member Eric Pyle
Shenandoah Valley, VA, USA   USA
Did the TR250s have a single speed wiper motor or a two speed motor? Mine seems to be single speed DR3A, but I keep finding references to two-speed DR3A motors.

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Brian Oklahoma Brian Plotkin
Edmond, 73012, USA   USA
1968 Triumph TR250 "Kevin"
The original wiper motor was a two speed motor. The switch has two connections to the wiper motor: Red/Light Green wire is the slow speed connection, Brown/Light Green wire is the fast speed connection.

Bpt70gt Avatar
Bpt70gt Brian T
Westmoreland, NH, USA   USA
Two speed is correct, if you're having problems getting both speeds to work, the switch is fussy and may need to be cleaned. Sometimes I have to cycle my switch several times to get the other speed to work.

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Aphyle2012 Avatar
Aphyle2012 Silver Member Eric Pyle
Shenandoah Valley, VA, USA   USA
You've confirmed one thing for me - that it is supposed to have two speeds. And looking at the Advance Auto Wire schematic, there would appear to be three contacts + ground. Looking in the Bentley's manual, though, the ground is shared with the Red/Light Green wire. Does that seem right?

So would this put the green wire on contact #1 and the brown/light green wire on contact #2? This sure makes bench testing a treat - I can get the motor to work in one speed with a 12V source across contacts 1 and 2. Looks like I will have to construct a circuit mock-up to truly test it.

That, or this motor was replaced with a 1-speed at some point prior to 1991, when I bought the car.

Brian Oklahoma Brian Plotkin
Edmond, 73012, USA   USA
1968 Triumph TR250 "Kevin"
The switch supplies a ground to the motor through the red/light green wire when it is in the slow position only. In the off or fast position, the red/light green wire is open circuited. I would start by removing the wiper switch and checking its operation using a multimeter. Also, look at the motor. If it has both a red/light green wire and a brown/light green wire going to it then it is a 2 speed motor.

Aphyle2012 Avatar
Aphyle2012 Silver Member Eric Pyle
Shenandoah Valley, VA, USA   USA
Since the motor is off of the car for rebuilding, I will have to devise a mock-up of the circuit using the brand switch that I have. I also restored the harness a while back, so I will pull it out of the box and see what leads are in the wiper and wiper switch positions along the harness. Still, I find the subtle difference in the Bentley's shop manual and the Advance Auto Wire schematics...troubling. All of the narrative in the Bentley's manual is about the TR6 wiper motor. Anyone have the shop manual for a TR4A?

Aphyle2012 Avatar
Aphyle2012 Silver Member Eric Pyle
Shenandoah Valley, VA, USA   USA
This is starting to drive me a bit crazy, all. I got out the brand new wiper switch that I have, and found it to have four terminals, numbered 1,2,3,4. I checked the continuity for all three switch positions, captured in the table below. Both my Bentley's manual and the Advance Autowire schematics show only three contacts for the switch, with no notations other than wire color. Remember, this is bench testing, not on the car.

My TR250 (manufacture date 3/63) motor's armature (DR3A) shown next, has only two terminals, with the red wire shown for the self-parking. Overall, there are terminals 1, 2, and E on the motor.

As it happened, I have a second motor from a 1967 MGB that I had forgotten about. This, too, is a DR3A, with a manufacture date of 11/65. On closer inspection, the armature (picture 2) is slightly different, with a center tab and an extra set of wires, leading to some sort of reed switch (picture 3). This motor also has terminals 1, 2, and E on the motor, and the same type of self-park.

From what I've been able to surmise, there is a green +12V line that should go to terminal 2 on both the motor as well as the #2 connector on the switch. I am also guessing that the DR3A motor on my TR250 was a single speed, while the one from the MGB was a two-speed motor, given the extra wiring and the reed switch. Terminal 2 on the MGB motor's armature has a different shape than on the TR250's motor, with Terminal 2 connected to the center contact that is present on the MGB motor and absent on the TR250 motor.

So how the heck am I to set this up to bench test it? Terminal 1 on switch to terminal 1 on motor? What then for terminal 4 on the motor - where to? Should terminals 2 + 3 both get a +12V feed? Please advise me what connects to what, by terminal and location, not wire color.

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Wiper Switch Positions.jpg

DR3A_TR250.jpg    65.8 KB
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DR3A_MGBa.jpg    63.1 KB
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Desert TR Avatar
Desert TR Gold Member Jim P
Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA   USA
Eric,

I didn't read completely through all the previous posts, but I can say I just bench tested my TR4A wiper and it is the same as the one on the TR250. It is a two speed wiper with a park. There are three wires that come out of the motor and connect to the harness and a black ground wire connected to the case that is used for the park function. Let me go through it for you. The wires indide the moter are the same color as the harness, but the insulation is such that it isn't always easy to see so I am attaching a photo that might help.

The green wire is the +12 volt feed to the motor.
The brown with light green is the high speed
The red with light green is the low speed.

There is a all red wire inside the motor that connects to the park switch. Ignore that for now.

Connect the green to +12 and the brown with light green to ground and the motor will operate at high speed. In order for the motor to run at low speed, both the brown with light green wire and the red with light green wire need to be tied to ground.

The park function works through the black wire connected to the case. If the case is grounded, the motor will continue to turn when the ground to the high speed (brown / green) [fast operation] or the grounds to the high speed (brown w/ green) and low speed, (red w green) [slow operation] are removed as long as the +12 to the green is connected. The motor will stop turning when the park switch turns to where it is insulated from the case. This is the park operation that continues the wiper motion after the switch is turned off until the wipers are in the lowered position.

Does this help?

Jim


Attachments:
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011.JPG

Aphyle2012 Avatar
Aphyle2012 Silver Member Eric Pyle
Shenandoah Valley, VA, USA   USA
Thanks, Jim. While this was not exactly what I was looking for, your photograph helps convince me that both of the motors that I possess are 1-speed motors. Both of them have only two spade connections to the armature, and the one external Earth spade connection. So the motor that I took off of my TR250 must have been a replacement motor. I can make it spin by connecting motor tabs

What I really need is a numbered connections between the switch, the motor, the power source, and ground. The switch has four numbered contacts, and the motor has two, and earth. The schematics from Bentley's and Advance Auto wire to not, and have discrepancies. All make the assumption that there is a two-speed motor involved, as stock. Some PO replaced it, and I am having difficulty on how to reconcile things with a two-speed switch.

So how would I wire it by the numbers for a 1-speed operation? How would/could it be converted for two-speed operation? What is the difference in the one from the MGB - is this some sort of crypto-2-speed motor, with this extra switch and wiring? With all these parts on hand, I'd like to avoid buying a whole additional motor, just to get 2-speeds.

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Brian Oklahoma Brian Plotkin
Edmond, 73012, USA   USA
1968 Triumph TR250 "Kevin"
I've got bad news and good news for you.

The 69 through 72 TR6 had a four contact wiper switch switch that looks similar to a TR250 switch. You can install it in a TR250 if you slightly enlarge the hole in the dash. The original TR250 wiper switch is no longer made. Here is a note from Moss motors:

WIPER SWITCH, 4 terminals
Note:
Lucas replacement for original "Clear Hooters" - hole in dash must be slightly enlarged. Has chrome bezel. Wire: terminal 1=blue/lt. green, 2=green, 4=red/lt. green, 5=brown/lt. green. Operation: top=off/parked, center = slow, bottom=fast.

Now for the good news. Take a look at EBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Triumph-TR250-TR6-Clear-Hooters-wiper-switch-/201748023695?hash=item2ef91e898f:g:5vYAAOSw4GVYTxoh&vxp=mtr

I don't know if the switch works, but it is a 3 contact switch.

Now for the wiper motor, also unavailable for a TR250 from Moss.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-TRIUMPH-TR4A-TR250-1966-69-TWO-SPEED-LUCAS-75568-WIPER-MOTOR-REBUILT-EXCH-/262756971777?hash=item3d2d893501:g:5FcAAOSwgQ9VjWU4&vxp=mtr

The motor is warranteed (for what that is worth from EBay).

I'd contact these sellers, put the car back to original and have parts that fit. As to the parts you have now - figure out what they go to and sell them on EBay. Who knows. You might not be out that much money. TR250s are rare enough that keeping them original is a good investment.

Personal Opinion - when it comes to wiring I'd believe Advance Auto Wire over anyone. Bentley is good but wiring is Advance'd specialty.

Aphyle2012 Avatar
Aphyle2012 Silver Member Eric Pyle
Shenandoah Valley, VA, USA   USA
Brian,

Thanks - this is very helpful indeed. I bought the switch from TRF, and now, taking my glasses off and looking closely, I see that the switch as 4 contacts and 5 terminals, 1,2,3,4,5, but #3 is just a stud. This tech info helps to explain things a bit more.

I will see about getting the proper switch and motor, but I may make a slight modification to one of my motors to get the two speed operation. Ultimately, it is, as you say, worth it to have the TR250 original as possible.

Thank you again for the reply.

davem Avatar
davem dave m
victoria bc, vancouver island, Canada   CAN
hi eric - glad you found what you are looking for
-good luck with the switch - my tr250 had a faulty switch and i had to rebuild it (very carefully) but it worked in the end
-and thanks for all the other emails - sounds like we both learned something from this discussion
dave

Aphyle2012 Avatar
Aphyle2012 Silver Member Eric Pyle
Shenandoah Valley, VA, USA   USA
Thanks again for all of your help, too, Dave. I find joint learning like this rather enjoyable.

Aphyle2012 Avatar
Aphyle2012 Silver Member Eric Pyle
Shenandoah Valley, VA, USA   USA
Update - with some simple, reversible surgery, I was successful in converting my DR3A wiper motor into a two-speed motor. It involves one extra wire and an external resistor, and will work until such time as I can find a proper motor. I'll update this post once I get the pictures off of my phone.

TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
In reply to # 1422138 by Aphyle2012 Update - with some simple, reversible surgery, I was successful in converting my DR3A wiper motor into a two-speed motor. It involves one extra wire and an external resistor, and will work until such time as I can find a proper motor. I'll update this post once I get the pictures off of my phone.
What value and size external resistor?



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild

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