TRExp

Motorsports Forum

SCCA spit set up

Moss Motors
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor
AutoShrine Sponsor

claytoncnc Avatar
claytoncnc Gold Member Marcus Clayton
Melbourne, Ivanhoe, Australia   AUS
4500 rpm is nothing to that engine, it will spin like that forever, 6500 will be your limit if you want it to last, (runs out of power there anyway)
Lifting at the rear = too stiff at rear.

I used to remove a leaf from the rear spring to soften it, easily done, reversible, costs nothing
This will lower the car, soften the rear and add neg camber.
Softer at rear = more traction. Then adjust height with suitable block.

Front may then need adjusting if it starts to push, (neg camber, then smaller bar)

Get the rear right, and the front is relatively simple.

Most Sundays I just drive the hills with some like minded mates, so a good road tyre is essential for me
I use Falken Ziex ZE 912 tyres in 175/60 13.

They are not a race tyre, but are good enough to enable me to drive to the the track and compete successfully.
In my last 3 events, Rob Roy hillclimb 2nd in U1300 (Beaten by full race Sprite on slicks) Rob Roy hillclimb 1st in U1300 and Sprint meeting 1st in U1500

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
arturo64 Avatar
arturo64 Arthur T
Billings, Montana, USA   USA
At my rear I have a camber compensator and I am in the process of making(car club friend is actually making it) a lowering block. My idea was to go big and then whittle it down later as needed...but probably to big at 1.5 in. I thought that refurbishing the spring w those disc things would help bring it back up. Take a leaf out of the spring? Really?



Arthur
68 spit
70 gt6+

claytoncnc Avatar
claytoncnc Gold Member Marcus Clayton
Melbourne, Ivanhoe, Australia   AUS
In reply to # 1299467 by arturo64 At my rear I have a camber compensator and I am in the process of making(car club friend is actually making it) a lowering block. My idea was to go big and then whittle it down later as needed...but probably to big at 1.5 in. I thought that refurbishing the spring w those disc things would help bring it back up. Take a leaf out of the spring? Really?

Yeah, really.

(Assuming that the lifting is not a fleeting transient caused by too stiff rebound valving in rear shocks that happens on turn in)

Just physics.

Weight transfer is to tyres on the outside of the turn.
If suspension is solid both ends, both inside tyres lift together.
If solid one end and soft the other, the solid end will lift a tyre, while the soft end will roll and keep inside tyre on the ground.

You want your car to have the solid end at the front, so if there is any wheel lifting to happen it will be at the front,

You have already put sway bar and springs at that end, yet the rear still lifts and tucks, which means it is still stiffer in roll than the front.

This is a function of the geometry, and the mounting of the original spring, having a high (and varying) roll centre and is what the camber compensator partially deals with.
It can also be dealt with by fitting the swing spring, which has a much lower roll stiffness.

Softening the rear will lower the roll resistance, and the roll centre, helping keep the wheel on the ground. When the rear rolls, the outside wheel is forced up further into the wheel arch and the camber compensator, acting through the centre pivot will force the inside wheel onto the road.

I attach a photo of the leaf to remove.
The mk3 is me autocrossing 40 years ago, plenty of body roll, but no large swaybars/springs available then.
No tucking, and inside rear firmly planted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-06-26 11:51 PM by claytoncnc.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

Attachments:
IMG_2711.jpg    63.3 KB
IMG_2711.jpg

Spitfire Mk3 2.jpg    33.6 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
Spitfire Mk3 1.jpg    38.8 KB
Sign In or Register to view this photo
arturo64 Avatar
arturo64 Arthur T
Billings, Montana, USA   USA
Well I'm still at it. Got one race in and I did pretty well(at least I beat someone). My gt6 brakes work great and the new bushing really tightened things up. I just relaxed my camber from the near 4 degrees negative by taking out one shim. I'm hoping it helps. Also I never did an alignment....so that's next.
The big test is how the 1" lowering block helps w my rear end. Super excited to see how that helps. If I'm still lifting and tucking I'm gonna go w some longer 1500 axles.
Then I'll be after Miata rims and better tires.
Second race this weekend and I'm getting Excited!



Arthur
68 spit
70 gt6+

clshore Carter Shore
Beverly Hills, Florida, USA   USA
Yes, I used to use a small Dremel with thin composite blade to carefully cut slots in the flange from each hole to the edge.
This gave enough clearance for the bolts to pass through, and clamp everything together.
We ran a locked diff, and the stub axles would eventually snap inside.
So inspection and replacement as needed after each weekend.
Under magnification, you can see the cracks starting to form at the roots of the splines in the stub axles.

JimG Avatar
JimG Jim G
Aurora, CO, USA   USA
Just one thing about lowering the car that a lot of people forget. When you lower the car and you don't change shocks or change the shock position
you are cutting down the available shock travel. I have a buddy that crashed his TR4 right off the pit lane after lowering his car.
It bottomed out immediately on a damp track which sent him into a spin which ended in the pit wall.
I run 3" of ground clearance on the TR4. I had to lower my from spring pans and some other trickery. On the rear ( IRS car ) I run Spax adjustable
tube shocks. I had to extend my upper shock mount. If I hadn't done that I was only at .5" travel with me in the car.
If you want to find out where your travel is just put the car on jack stands and with suspension at full droop put some zip ties on your piston rods, snug them up
and slide them down to the tops of the shock bodies and go drive it. That will show how much travel you are using.
jg


Attachments:
QA1.jpg    45.8 KB
QA1.jpg

Triumph Racer Avatar
Triumph Racer Patrick N
south bend, IN., USA   USA
1962 Triumph TR4 "My First Triumph"
1962 Triumph TR4 "Big Red"
1964 Triumph TR4 "Ugly Duckling"
1971 Triumph Spitfire MkIV    & more
Wow,you should find some buddies that can drive. Or at least wrench! Everyone who has some some spare bucks and desire wants to race. Been like that for 20yrs in Vintage. That's why I got out of that class! You guys want to do all that stuff then go race SCCA. My TR4 had lot's of trick components but it was derived around stock features. Not fancy stuff someone made in their basement for people to bolt on.

Back in the beginning there were no Drew's or Alexanders selling trick parts. Cars were raw as Vintage should be. What's Vintage about something that was designed last month and just came off the lathe? This is what makes Vintage a joke nowdays! IT's what destroyed SCCA and created Vintage... that's a fact.

No one seems to remember back when it was created you had to prove provenonce. Your car actually had to have been a race car or designed to be one. You had to submit photos and log books to prove it. Otherwise it was Si an nara Charlie. You could not build a car out of spares in your garage over winter and show up.

Now it is about bucks. You got an old car and it passes safety issues your in with your entry fee. Dog eat dog,should I join the crowd or opt out? Not all the racers fault either,if the organizations allow it to get the fees for the show. It's all Carn e val..

Jim,I am sorry for the rant. But it is true from my stand point. When I started there were only a handful of TR4's racing. Almost no MGB's but for some reason several MGC's. The SVRA is supposed to be tightening up on this? Not sure if you have run any of their races? The VSCDA who I run with is very strict but no where what they used to be. You can't run Toyota truck brakes and claim it is a "safety enhancement" for purpose. The rules started from the 67 GCR competition log and only later deferred to the 72 rules. Most so called Vintage cars today would not even pass SCCA current rules. Most of the competitors all know it but continue to ignore those facts.

Honestly do you think your car or most you race with are Vintage? If so,from what stand point? The cars are prodified,which meant in the old SCCA days they were bumped up a class,even just for using Weber's. The Canadians had a class for it,called improved production. How many points passed that do you think your car is?

Once again I am sorry if I offended you. I have been around the block many times and ways over the years. It's simple to me,the more you just go out there and enjoy driving your car the more fun it is. Nowdays it is false commaraderie,,oh I am going to have to get me some of those to keep up with you!



Sometimes you succeed,other times you learn.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
JimG Avatar
JimG Jim G
Aurora, CO, USA   USA
First of all nice rant, really nice. By the way, I have a lot of buddies that can drive and wrench...so......................!
I have nobodys aftermarket parts on my car. I built the car from the ground up, bolt by bolt, sheet metal, paint, engine,
extensive metal fabrication, spec'd my own cam, My custom made pistons, my own port work, FLow benching & head developement the engine is MY SPEC.
Everything about my suspension is of MY design. This car cornerweights out at +/- .1%, I've never heard of anyone getting a TR4 to weigh out that good.
I put my heart and soul into that car and I'm DAMN PROUD of what I've built and developed over the last several years.
It was the last street car my dad ever drove , it was his and is still street registered, it will be all it can be and still within the 1972 GCR.

When I hear whining like yours it's always from the back of the pack, it's always been that way.


And, yes, you did offend me if you haven't figured it out yet!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2016-07-06 09:31 PM by JimG.


Attachments:
2.jpg    40.8 KB
2.jpg

clshore Carter Shore
Beverly Hills, Florida, USA   USA
So Jim, what you are saying is that you have a very, very highly modified custom car?
In the picture, I see what appears to be a forged aluminum suspension arm, and threaded adjustable shock.
Don't think any TR4 left the Triumph Factory with anything like that.

Not putting you or the car down, just an observation

I started racing SCCA in 1968, and most of the stuff you have described doing would have been flatly illegal.
Hell, we didn't even have slicks back then, only Firestone 500 and Goodyear Blue Streaks.

Patrick is criticizing the way that the organizations have handled these issues.
In many ways, we have reverted to a 'Sillouette Formula', a 'Funny Car' formula, where the cars 'look' Vintage from 20 feet away.
The 'Trick of the Week' club, gotta buy (or to give credit to those with the time and talent) or make one of those ...

Kastner's Motto was "Never be beaten by superior equipment", which means do all that the rules allow.

The problem lies in the rules, not the cars, mechanics, or drivers.

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <
Triumph Racer Avatar
Triumph Racer Patrick N
south bend, IN., USA   USA
1962 Triumph TR4 "My First Triumph"
1962 Triumph TR4 "Big Red"
1964 Triumph TR4 "Ugly Duckling"
1971 Triumph Spitfire MkIV    & more
Well Then I am sorry I offended you. Maybe only because there is personal stake in it being your Dad's car? I have seen your posts for years and can you tell me you have no Alexander products in it? Did your Dad's car have Toyota brakes on it when you got it?


I was racing SCCA BP when you were still thinking about driving,Dad's car. Did you do your licensing at the vintage schools or Skippy school? I went to Bondurant in CA. when I was 18. That was after all the B.S. SCCA schools. After that I went to Europe and raced Formula Fords in Jim Russell schools which were the best of the time.

My theme is you could not probably hold a candle to me for one to one driving. You are all about car not about how to drive Have you Vintage raced against Stirling Moss or Andretti? I have. Do you count Brian Redman amongst your friends and race with him? I know the difference between the best and the also ran's.

You have no idea where I have been and what I have driven? Actually right now I would put my Spitfire against your TR4. Let's see who does a cleaner faster lap?
I can give you my lap times for Daytona to Elkhart Lake. And my car is Vintage legal in the spirit of racing.

I really don't want to get in a pissing match with you,Jim. You have done what you do and I have been were I have been. I am no back of the back complainer and never have been. Come East and see what it brings you? See how your car stands up to say people like Dick Stockton who has been racing way before me. When I was competing in the TR4,Jackson's TR3 was the fastest in the country. All I can say is you have not been around long enough to know all the facts.

I appreciate what you do and hope you have fun with it. I apologize for being so Passionate about my stance. As long as you wave the Triumph flag it is all good.
Just wanted to let you know I had been there done that from the beginning. Do not hold it against me for my stance on the Vintage scene. I am done with this because I do not want to steal the original poster's theme. I hope you continue to do well with your car and enjoy it.



Sometimes you succeed,other times you learn.

JimG Avatar
JimG Jim G
Aurora, CO, USA   USA
I have no Alexander parts on my car. No forged aluminum suspension arms, just a spacer.
You offended me and my friends without provocation and you too have no idea where Ive been or what Ive driven or still drive. The TR is the slowest car I own.
I just come to this site to try to help some people build a stronger car but I forgot, it's your site. You comment on virtually every post so I will leave you to it.
I'm out.
By the way, vintage racing isn't my first rodeo, just my last
outa here !

Triumph Racer Avatar
Triumph Racer Patrick N
south bend, IN., USA   USA
1962 Triumph TR4 "My First Triumph"
1962 Triumph TR4 "Big Red"
1964 Triumph TR4 "Ugly Duckling"
1971 Triumph Spitfire MkIV    & more
That was all very well put,Carter. I have to give you credit for those thoughts and the experience of the good old days where they came from.

Rules,rules,rules. They are put forth for a reason? I would also like to add IMHO that it is the enforcement or rather non enforcement of them that has created the issue!
Like most things now days it's about the MONEY. How much doe's it cost to put an event on,and how much can we charge entrants to run. They may catch you cheating but you will be admonished and not sent home. Otherwise it will be overlooked to pocket your money and you get a pass. Greed breeds greed!eye popping smiley

So then a racer go's home and says,hmmmn they never said anything about that. What if I add this? Snowball effect rolls on. It's almost an industry of cronyism, we let people build cars any way they want, the suppliers of trick parts sell them,we get more money because we have more entries. NOT! It kills the whole spirit of what Vintage is supposed to be about,what it was envisioned as. Ya wanna play Penske/Donahue and see who cheats best,fine. Go race SCCA nowdays as a amateur racer or go pro.

As far as Jim's comment about this being my site? Nothing can be further from the truth! That is his opinion and thoughts. I comment on all categories because I have Experience in them. I also enjoy helping others out and participating in the website. For 35+ yrs. I have worked on cars that include everything from Alvis to TVR. I have been in them and under them. So please understand that. Not just Brit cars either,I have 5 albums full of photos through the years of been there and done that. Probably could put together 2 more at the moment. It's my life work,and when it could be recorded and a camera was available I captured it. Hundreds of cars I was involved with have not been saved because there was not the opportunity or time to do so.

You actually set your own self up making that comment about me. The one about " I post on everything". If you do not have a Spitfire,nor have ever owned or raced one? Why are you posting advice to someone who does? You won't find me on the Lancia Forum,because I can honestly say,honestly I don't know.



Sometimes you succeed,other times you learn.


Attachments:
43eeb1ecf47965e65950f9b68c1a2814.jpg    42.1 KB
43eeb1ecf47965e65950f9b68c1a2814.jpg

arturo64 Avatar
arturo64 Arthur T
Billings, Montana, USA   USA
...wow....



Arthur
68 spit
70 gt6+

hoffman900 Bob Adams
USA, USA, USA   USA
1978 Yamaha MC TT500 "Flat Tracker"
Patrick,

Since I crew for Dick and am a good friend of his, I don't think he would be very happy to have his name dragged into your nonsense.

First all, there are the rules. You build to the rules. If you're a real racer, you could give a rats ass what the 1967 GCR says - your rule set is whatever your sanctioning body is in 2016.

If you're racing SVRA, then you build to SVRA's 2016 rulebook. If you're racing with VARA, you build to the 2016 VARA rule book.

Those who think vintage ever had strict interpretations to the 1967 or whatever GCR is delusional and quite frankly, guys that sound like you, do so to compensate for their lack of prep ability and talent behind the wheel... "well they only beat me because they were cheating". What a crock of crap.

If you would pull your head out of your butt, you would know that the rule set Jim runs under is loosely based on the 1980 GCR.

Second of all, his shocks even meet the letter of the rule in SVRA, "shocks and springs are free" - his are mounted in the stock locations. Hell, something like this is legal:


It's not 1967 anymore, no need to use vintage Koni's when technology has progressed leaps and bounds....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-07-07 06:08 PM by hoffman900.

clshore Carter Shore
Beverly Hills, Florida, USA   USA
The term 'Vintage' in 'Vintage Racing' now means about as much as the term 'Stock' in 'Stock Cars'.

ie, both are silent.

Racers will go as far as rules permit, no doubt about that

Patrick's point is that rules are being made (and enforced) by and for the benefit of the Sanctioning bodies
to make more money, not for the benefit of the Racer/Members.

So Bob, and Dick, and Jim, guys like you sound awfully defensive to me.
(And kind of muffled, as if your heads are up your own butts)

Maybe you just can't cut it in the real world of racing, so 'Vintage Racing' rules allow you to spend whatever it takes to win instead.
(maybe someone is 'compensating', if you know what I mean?).

But maybe not, what's the difference, this post is just a bunch glowing dots on a screen ...

. Hide banner ads & support this website by becoming a > Gold Supporting Member <

To add your reply, or post your own questions

Members Sign In   or   Create an Account

Registration is FREE and takes less than a minute!


Having trouble posting or changing forum settings?
Read the Forum Help (FAQ) or contact the webmaster