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Clutch Fork Tapered Pin - Safety Wire?

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The Watson Chuck Watson
Greenville, SC, USA   USA
1969 Triumph GT6+ (MkII) "The 69"
1970 Triumph GT6+ (MkII) "Vintage Racer"
1970 Triumph GT6+ (MkII) "The 70"
1988 Isuzu Trooper "The Trooper"
Hello -

The tapered pin that holds the clutch fork in place has a hole for safety wire. Can anyone tell me where this is typically tied off? Was this system used in all years?

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smaceng Avatar
smaceng Scott Macdonald
Martinez, CA, USA   USA
Try something like this
Scott in CA
Compliments of the TR6 club of american


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IMG_3497_zpsee286840.jpg

Darth V8R Avatar
Darth V8R Vance Navarrette
Beaverton, Oregon, USA   USA
1980 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
In reply to # 936662 by smaceng Try something like this
Scott in CA
Compliments of the TR6 club of american

Scott:

Not only is the pin safety wired, I notice you have cross drilled the fork and added a roll pin. I approve - you will not need to service that clutch again, at least until the disk wears out. thumbs up

Cheers,

Vance



1980 Platinum Metallic TR8, navy blue interior
Bare metal respray, Crower cam, raised compression
ported heads, modified Zenith carbs, 0.060" overbore

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smaceng Avatar
smaceng Scott Macdonald
Martinez, CA, USA   USA
I can't take credit for this, I found it on the forum credited with the photo!
But thanks anyway.....
Scott in CA

TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
Lotta force involved, I have doubts about the ability of that roll pin to improve things any. Right or wrong, after having that dang taper pin break, mine is now reinforced with a 1/4" diameter, grade 8 bolt. Similar to (not my photo)[URL=http://s258.photobucket.com/user/TR3driver/media/Misc%20parts/CrossDrill.jpg.html][/URL]



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild

Darth V8R Avatar
Darth V8R Vance Navarrette
Beaverton, Oregon, USA   USA
1980 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
In reply to # 936885 by TR3driver Lotta force involved, I have doubts about the ability of that roll pin to improve things any. Right or wrong, after having that dang taper pin break, mine is now reinforced with a 1/4" diameter, grade 8 bolt. Similar to (not my photo)[URL=http://s258.photobucket.com/user/TR3driver/media/Misc%20parts/CrossDrill.jpg.html][/URL]

Randall:

My point is that the notoriously weak pin has some backup support. A Grade 8 bolt certainly fills the bill in that regard. A roll pin is hardened spring steel, and so is very stout, and when installed properly is in double shear (unlike the fork pin) and so is 40% stronger than it would otherwise be. Of course that also applies to your grade 8 bolt fix.

IMHO a grade eight bolt is wretched excess, to which I give my hearty approval. Anything worth doing is worth overdoing. More power, bigger brakes, better suspension are all areas that are ripe for wretched excess at the hands of car enthusiasts. Bwuh-hah-hah-haaaa! hot smiley

Was that over the top?

Vance



1980 Platinum Metallic TR8, navy blue interior
Bare metal respray, Crower cam, raised compression
ported heads, modified Zenith carbs, 0.060" overbore

TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
Hardened steel yes, but it's also hollow and designed to compress easily. The broken pin that I took out was solid and over 1/4" thick where it broke, and also hardened steel (tho perhaps not to the same extent as the roll pin). In practice, I think the taper pin will take the load first (while the roll pin just flexes), until it breaks, and then the roll pin won't carry the entire load for long before it breaks as well.

The bolt is probably overkill; after all the original pin lasted 40+ years, but I don't trust the replacements to be made from the same quality steel as original. So many other things aren't. Anyway, just my opinion, worth everything it costs.



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild

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AllanJ71MGB Avatar
AllanJ71MGB Allan Johnson
Princeton, NJ, USA   USA
1971 MG MGB "Batmobile"
1971 Triumph TR6
Hi Everyone,

Sorry to resurrect an old post.....

I got my new tires on last night and my ride is smooth as can be and I am super excited. Picked up my son from school and the car began to have some serious issues getting into first, then second. As in It wouldn't go into gear unless the car was rolling slightly. No grinding, just couldn't get it into gear. Reverse grids a bit from stop with full clutch. I've got new hydraulics. The only thing that is original is the hard line from master to the slave hose. I don't think it is hydraulic related but I will certainly check that.

Also, I read conflicting reports on what type of oil to put into the A-type OD transmission. I used 20w50 motor oil as that is what I was always told to put in my MGB and that was an option I saw for the TR6 as well. Mistake? The OD works sporadically when switched on and off (doesn't matter what gear). The wiring and relay seem fine. I am not sure if it is electrical, mechanical, or the oil. Thoughts?

So, from things I've read, I think the shifting problem is the dreaded clutch fork pin. This is my first TR6. I have a 71 MGB which uses a different setup so I am hoping for some advice.

  1. What purpose does the safety wire serve? Wouldn't the pin break or turn anyway? Is it just to keep a broken pin-head from getting into the clutch?
  2. I want to cross drill the fork and shaft. Will a normal 1/4 drill bit suffice? Is a Drill Press required? I read over at buckeye triumph to use a slightly undersized bit; 0.242. They also recommended a non-hardened 1/4 bolt so that it is softer than the shaft. I like Randall's option though - the harder the better. Thoughts?
  3. In terms of parts, what should I order? I'd like to have everything on hand that I might need
    1. I am assuming I should get a brand new shaft and fork.
    2. I am assuming I should replace the clutch/KIT. Any opinions on AP brand vs. LUK? Worth the extra $$$
    3. Should I get new shaft bushings? Are they hard to change? Do they need to be reamed or is the shaft a perfect fit?
    4. Is getting a new tunnel advised?
    5. Should I get new Trans mounts?
    6. Should I replace all the seals and gaskets? Is the tailshaft seal hard to do? I read a post on the front seal already.
    7. Should I get a new flywheel pivot bush?
    8. Should I get a hardened or regular release fork pin?
    9. Should I attempt to replace the synchros?
    10. Do #4,6,8 in Moss's image below need to be replaced too? If #4, is steel good enough or should I get the phosphor-bronze upgrade (I am not racing this car).
  4. In terms of removal, the car has an A type overdrive. I saw that you can take the transmission out through the interior of the car. I have been looking for a step-by-step guide - anyone have one? I watched a video on youtube but it was non-OD and the actual removal was not shown.
    1. I do not have a lift. A floor jack and 4 stands is all I have. How heavy is the transmission and overdrive going to be to get out? Will a good friend and I be able to manage or do I need a hoist? I don't have much room in my garage - single bay.
    2. I am going to be redoing my seats anyway so they are coming out. When removing, where is the fixed portion of the screw/nut for the seat attachment to the car? On my MGB, the nuts are welded to the floorpans. On the TR6, I glanced at this a couple of months ago and I didn't really see the 'loose' portion.... Is the fixed part part of the seat attachment system and the nut on the underside of the car loose?
    3. How does the brake lever come into play? Removal?
    4. How does the tunnel come out?
    5. After disconnecting the driveshaft does it just fall away?
    6. Does the engine need to be jacked up in the back slightly to get the unit in and out?
    7. Anything else I should do while it is out?

    Thanks guys,


TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
I think it very unlikely that choice of oil is the cause of your OD problems. The main gearbox is pickier, and even there it is a matter of how quickly it wears out rather than refusing to work. I do prefer the Redline MT-90, and the factory did recommend a GL4 oil. But I used to run 20W50 and saw no difference in OD operation when I switched.

IMO The safety wire is to keep the pin from backing out.

The steel bushings are "good enough", but I like the brass (which were standard for my TR3). I made up a mandrel to change them, just a piece of round steel with part of it turned down to fit into the center of the bushing. Makes changing them a snap. There is probably also a way to use a length of threaded rod and some nuts& washers to pull the new bushing into place while also forcing the old one out, but I haven't tried it. No reaming required.

I reused the fork even with the hole I had to drill to get the broken pin out, but the shaft was worn so I replaced it.
If it ain't broke ...



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild

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Krom Avatar
Krom Paul K
San Rafael, CA, USA   USA
Hi Allan-

Regarding all your questions about which parts to replace, it sounds as though you have pretty much covered the waterfront. You'll perhaps spend more and replace a few items that aren't currently causing problems, but doing it right and doing it once makes sense to me.
If the old fork pin is broken off in the shaft, it may be too difficult to extract, making a new replacement shaft and fork a sensible idea. The pins (#8 in the Moss diagram) should come as part of the fork. Best to ask when buying.

Replace the bushings in the bell housing that hold the cross shaft. I replaced them when the clutch was renewed. I don't recall the exact procedure, but am sure I improvised a drift of some sort to remove and install the bushings. I don't recall having to size them at all.

Re the type of throw out bearing and carrier- I've run stock, but others will have broader experience with some of the fancier choices. Ask others also about their advice concerning lubrication of the input shaft at reassembly time. Get a clutch alignment tool.

You asked about replacing all the items that can be replaced with the transmission out. The items you highlighted do wear and it's a heck of a lot easier to replace them when you already have the box out of the car. Do replace the trans mounts. I had the trans serviced so I cannot describe the challenge of replacing the seals. I didn't get inside the box myself, so I can't discuss the synchro replacement. If you can work on your box, then replace what needs to be done. There are other threads that detail the tranny work and discuss the A type OD. Unless you have experience with it, I would let someone else mess with taking apart the OD. There are folks on this site who have the experience, but my concern has been getting ahold of some of the rare replacement parts and proper reassembly techniques for a procedure that really should only be done once by someone who knows what they're doing.

The pilot bushing is a no brainer. Change it.

I used the Magic Clutch Kit from The Roadster Factory when redoing mine years ago. No problems yet. Buy a quality clutch as performing a second replacement of a new unit that was inexpensive is false economy. Ensure your flywheel and ring gear are in top condition. Now is the time to replace or resurface your flywheel.

Below I outline my recollection of the procedure to pull the transmission. Other members may offer embellishments, corrections, better procedures, shortcuts. Heed their advice. They probably have performed this task more recently than I. One thing I can say is, the fact that I haven't had to repeat the process for a number of years gives me confidence that I didn't completely mess up the process...it is not rocket science, just tedious.

If there is one procedure on this car that is familiar to me, it is removing the transmission. Before I decided to stop doing my repairs in piece meal fashion, I tried to discern which single component might be the culprit. Waste of time.

Disconnect the battery.

You need to pull the seats. Tilt the seats forward and remove two nuts and bolts (9/16 wrench/sockets) on each seat at the front where it connects to the slider. , remove the center fascia (bolts to the floor and under dash) along with whatever mess you have that is called a radio...You should not have to remove the section of console housing the heater controls as the fascia bolt to it and can be removed without disrupting that upper section.

Carefully remove the wiring (use tags or tape to label) connecting the reverse switch and OD interlocks as they go through the carpet and tunnel. If you have an original fiber tunnel, consider a new plastic version and think about insulating it with sound absorbent materials.

Remove the tunnel by backing out all the bolts (should require a 7/16 socket/wrench) attaching tunnel to the floor and wrestling it over the shifter and around the handbrake. Some people remove the shift lever. I've never done so.

A pair of box end wrenches will loosen the bolts from the tail flange to the drive shaft. You might mark the alignment for reassembly.

The rear transmission mount is pretty simple to loosen. Just remove the bolts, but leave the mount in place to support the tranny.

You will want a jack of some sort and a wooden block to support the rear plate of the motor at this point.

You need to remove all the bolts connecting the trans to the rear of the motor. Two of those bolts involve the starter. All the bolts can be removed by one person, but it's easier with two, or if the one has very long skinny arms. when the starter is loosened, it should be secured/supported in such a fashion as it is not dangling by the wiring attached to it.

The overdrive unit adds to the weight of the transmission. You might ask a pal to help you bench press it out or use some sort of leverage (cherry picker, overhead block and tackle) as you slide the unit to the rear. You may need to add an inch or so of lift to the rear of the motor at this time. Find some means of supporting the front of the trans as you slide it out. It will be resting on the input shaft/pilot bush.

The rest is mostly lifting and wrestling the unit to the bench. Reinstallation is simple. Just do everything in reverse. The manuals and threads discuss lubing the input shaft appropriately (not liberally as you are in the clutch area). I hope this helps. I've probably missed or forgotten some critical element, but someone will chime in and straighten it out.
Good luck.

PK

Darth V8R Avatar
Darth V8R Vance Navarrette
Beaverton, Oregon, USA   USA
1980 Triumph TR8 "Wedgie"
In reply to # 1462798 by AllanJ71MGB Hi Everyone,


  1. What purpose does the safety wire serve? Wouldn't the pin break or turn anyway? Is it just to keep a broken pin-head from getting into the clutch?
  2. I want to cross drill the fork and shaft. Will a normal 1/4 drill bit suffice? Is a Drill Press required? I read over at buckeye triumph to use a slightly undersized bit; 0.242. They also recommended a non-hardened 1/4 bolt so that it is softer than the shaft. I like Randall's option though - the harder the better. Thoughts?
  3. In terms of parts, what should I order? I'd like to have everything on hand that I might need
    1. I am assuming I should get a brand new shaft and fork.
    2. I am assuming I should replace the clutch/KIT. Any opinions on AP brand vs. LUK? Worth the extra $$$
    3. Should I get new shaft bushings? Are they hard to change? Do they need to be reamed or is the shaft a perfect fit?
    4. Is getting a new tunnel advised?
    5. Should I get new Trans mounts?
    6. Should I replace all the seals and gaskets? Is the tailshaft seal hard to do? I read a post on the front seal already.
    7. Should I get a new flywheel pivot bush?
    8. Should I get a hardened or regular release fork pin?
    9. Should I attempt to replace the synchros?
    10. Do #4,6,8 in Moss's image below need to be replaced too? If #4, is steel good enough or should I get the phosphor-bronze upgrade (I am not racing this car).
  4. In terms of removal, the car has an A type overdrive. I saw that you can take the transmission out through the interior of the car. I have been looking for a step-by-step guide - anyone have one? I watched a video on youtube but it was non-OD and the actual removal was not shown.
    1. I do not have a lift. A floor jack and 4 stands is all I have. How heavy is the transmission and overdrive going to be to get out? Will a good friend and I be able to manage or do I need a hoist? I don't have much room in my garage - single bay.
    2. I am going to be redoing my seats anyway so they are coming out. When removing, where is the fixed portion of the screw/nut for the seat attachment to the car? On my MGB, the nuts are welded to the floorpans. On the TR6, I glanced at this a couple of months ago and I didn't really see the 'loose' portion.... Is the fixed part part of the seat attachment system and the nut on the underside of the car loose?
    3. How does the brake lever come into play? Removal?
    4. How does the tunnel come out?
    5. After disconnecting the driveshaft does it just fall away?
    6. Does the engine need to be jacked up in the back slightly to get the unit in and out?
    7. Anything else I should do while it is out?

    Thanks guys,

Allan:

In order -
o The safety wire is to keep the pin from backing out. I suppose you could Loctite it instead.
o No need. Both can be salvaged, assuming that there is nothing nasty going on (my fork and shaft were welded together, but the welds broke sad smiley )
o Not necessarily. I would pull the clutch plate and measure it. Replace the pressure plate and disk if the disk is out of spec for thickness (See Bentley).
o Shaft bushings are wear items, and should be replaced while you are in there. They can be drifted in and out.
o If your tunnel is the original (fiberboard) then yes. If it is aftermarket (fiberglass or poly) then no.
o If your old ones are swollen, cracked or otherwise damaged, go ahead and replace them. Otherwise, don't.
o If they are leaking, then yes replace them, otherwise no. For the gaskets, use non hardening Permatex gasket sealer. They will leak again if you don't.
Discard any copper washers, and use Teflon thread sealer (not tape) instead of copper washers. Copper washers leak - Ask me how I know.
o A new bush won't hurt, but it is not a critical item either.
o Hardened. Cross drill the shaft using 3/16" bit, and insert a hardened 3/16" roll pin. I hand drilled mine.
o The synchros outlast the car. No need to replace them unless you know they are bad.
o Replacing the throw out bearing is easy and cheap. The fork pins wear rather quickly and become flatted which is harmless.
Replacement parts are sometimes of dodgy quality, and so can become a problem. If the bearing is performing well, and is not damaged, I would keep it.
o Can't help there.
o You have the needed tools already. The transmission and OD weigh roughly 100 lbs. I have done R & R by myself, but having a friend is better.
o Seats are secured by tack welded nuts on the floor pan.
o No need to mess with the brake lever.
o Tunnel is secured by 12 (?) bolts. After removing the bolts it pops off easily.
o Drive shaft will remain in place, with the t-shirt pressing holding it in position. It is telescoping, so you can shorten it a bit by simply pushing on the flange.
o Support the rear of the engine when you remove and reinstall the transmission. A jack is best as it allows you to adjust the height slightly as needed..
o Don't assume that a new part is better than your old part. Quality issues abound with replacement parts, so if the old part is in good shape, KEEP IT.

Vance



1980 Platinum Metallic TR8, navy blue interior
Bare metal respray, Crower cam, raised compression
ported heads, modified Zenith carbs, 0.060" overbore

titanic Berry P
Albany, Oregon, USA   USA
Allan-Before removing the trans., try measuring the throw of the slave cyl. rod. It should be 1/2"-5/8", depending of the size of the master cyl. If there is insufficient movement, if could be cause by wear at the various pivot points or air in the system.
An easy way to check for clutch release is to jack up the left rear wheel, put the car in any gear (engine not running. Depress the clutch and try moving the wheel. If the the clutch is releasing, it should spin easily.
Berry

AllanJ71MGB Avatar
AllanJ71MGB Allan Johnson
Princeton, NJ, USA   USA
1971 MG MGB "Batmobile"
1971 Triumph TR6
Thanks everyone for your help and advice! Much appreciated. Looks like I have a lot of work cut out and a big dent in the old wallet smiling smiley

Randall question on the MT90 - that is rated at 75W90 GL4. TRF is offering Brad Penn which is 80w90 GL4. Any advice there why the number before the w is different?

Also, how much oil is needed including the OD? I thought it was around 4 -5 quarts but it has been a couple of months since I changed it. When I pull the seals the oil will be out so I might as well change it to the 90W.

Thanks again!

-Allan

TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
The number in front of the 'W' indicates extreme cold weather performance. I don't have the numbers handy, but its something like 75W will work (flow) down to -30, while 80W only works to -20.

Not really relevant IMO, unless you plan to start the car in subzero temperatures.

The number after the W indicates viscosity at nominal operating temperature (100C).

Edit:
PS, I found a chart that says 75W is good to at least -40C, 80W to -26C. FWIW, that is for a (somewhat arbitrary) dynamic viscosity of 150,000 cP, which is somewhere between sour cream and peanut butter. The 90 after the 'W' means viscosity at 100C is between 13.13 and 18.5 cP; which is roughly the same as pure antifreeze at room temperature.
http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/
http://www.wmprocess.com/viscosity-common-liquids/

Redline claims MT-90 will pour down to -45C (which is -49F)
https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=46

That's probably more than you ever wanted to know, but JIC smiling smiley



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-06-09 05:01 PM by TR3driver.

TR3driver Randall Y
Confusion, Los Angeles, USA   USA
In reply to # 1462965 by AllanJ71MGB Also, how much oil is needed including the OD? I thought it was around 4 -5 quarts but it has been a couple of months since I changed it. When I pull the seals the oil will be out so I might as well change it to the 90W.
About 2 quarts. A bit more if you've had the unit apart to clean out the pump & operating pistons; a bit less otherwise.



Randall
56 TR3 TS13571L daily driver
71 Stag LE1473L awaiting engine rebuild
7? Stag awaiting gearbox rebuild

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