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Sputtering when hot above 50 mph

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Mail From: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>

Hello,

I have been having problems with my Spitfire sputtering like it's running out
of gas above 50 mph on hot days after it runs for a while at that speed
especially going up hill. If you let up and drop down in speed it runs fine.
Also runs fine at lower speeds even when it's hot. Runs alright above 50 mph
when the temperature is cooler.

I have a Weber carb with a mechanical fuel pump with the factory heat shield
under the carb.

Anybody have any ideas? Fuel filter, fuel pump, carb, vapor lock? Can vapor
lock happen at higher speeds?

I'm going to start with new fuel filters.

Thanks for any ideas.

Greg
1978 Spitfire 1500
_______________________________________________

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Mail From: Richard Gosling <(email redacted)>

My guess is that it isn't vapour lock - that's much more likely to happen
when the car is stationary and there isn't a flow of air to cool the intake
system.

Sounds to me much more like fuel starvation, which could be down to an
ineffective fuel pump, partially blocked fuel filter or carb, although I
can't think of any good reason why it should be worse when it is a warm day.

Another random thought - coil over-heating? But again can't see why this
would be worse at speed, or particularly when going up hills. So not too
likely.

Sorry I can't be more definitive...

Richard

On 19 July 2010 05:31, Greg Stull <(email redacted)> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have been having problems with my Spitfire sputtering like it's running
> out
> of gas above 50 mph on hot days after it runs for a while at that speed
> especially going up hill. If you let up and drop down in speed it runs
> fine.
> Also runs fine at lower speeds even when it's hot. Runs alright above 50
> mph
> when the temperature is cooler.
>
> I have a Weber carb with a mechanical fuel pump with the factory heat
> shield
> under the carb.
>
> Anybody have any ideas? Fuel filter, fuel pump, carb, vapor lock? Can vapor
> lock happen at higher speeds?
>
> I'm going to start with new fuel filters.
>
> Thanks for any ideas.
>
> Greg
> 1978 Spitfire 1500
> _______________________________________________
>
> (email redacted)
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Mail From: Matthew Milkevitch <(email redacted)>

It could definitely be fuel starvation. But one question: Can you get the
car above 50 mph at any time?
The reason why I ask is that another thing to check would be the carb linkage.
Make sure that the throttle plate can open all the way. Have an assistant
hold the accelerator pedal to the floor and then look down the carb throat.
Both throttle plates should be fully open (they should both be vertical). If
this isn't the case, adjust the linkage accordingly.
This happened to me once with my '77. The car would not go above 45
mph....seemed to run out of breath. It turned out the throttle cable slipped
(mis-tightened nut) and therefore the throttle plate would only open part-way.

Hope this helps,Matt Milkevitch'77 SpitfireWillow Grove, PA
--- On Tue, 7/20/10, Richard Gosling <(email redacted)> wrote:

From: Richard Gosling <(email redacted)>
Subject: Re: [Spits] Sputtering when hot above 50 mph
To: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "Spitfire Group" <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 11:53 AM

My guess is that it isn't vapour lock - that's much more likely to happen
when the car is stationary and there isn't a flow of air to cool the intake
system.

Sounds to me much more like fuel starvation, which could be down to an
ineffective fuel pump, partially blocked fuel filter or carb, although I
can't think of any good reason why it should be worse when it is a warm day.

Another random thought - coil over-heating? But again can't see why this
would be worse at speed, or particularly when going up hills. So not too
likely.

Sorry I can't be more definitive...

Richard

On 19 July 2010 05:31, Greg Stull <(email redacted)> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I have been having problems with my Spitfire sputtering like it's running
> out
> of gas above 50 mph on hot days after it runs for a while at that speed
> especially going up hill. If you let up and drop down in speed it runs
> fine.
> Also runs fine at lower speeds even when it's hot. Runs alright above 50
> mph
> when the temperature is cooler.
>
> I have a Weber carb with a mechanical fuel pump with the factory heat
> shield
> under the carb.
>
> Anybody have any ideas? Fuel filter, fuel pump, carb, vapor lock? Can vapor
> lock happen at higher speeds?
>
> I'm going to start with new fuel filters.
>
> Thanks for any ideas.
>
> Greg
> 1978 Spitfire 1500
> _______________________________________________
>
> (email redacted)
> Donate: team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $11.47
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> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> autox.team.net/mailman/options/spitfires/(email redacted)
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Mail From: Roger Elliott <(email redacted)>

Hi Greg,

Fuel filters are a good start. I would also check all of the rubber
hoses under the car. My wife's 250 had gas problems - I chased it all
over the place - New filter, new fuel pump. Finally saw one of the
rubber lines had a kink in it. It must have been bent in the same place
for years, but it finally got soft enough that when there was suction
through the line it would collapse. I suspect it could be affected by
heat as well.

Roger Elliott

Greg Stull wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have been having problems with my Spitfire sputtering like it's running out
> of gas above 50 mph on hot days after it runs for a while at that speed
> especially going up hill.
>
> Thanks for any ideas.
>
> Greg
> 1978 Spitfire 1500
> _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

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Mail From: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>

Sent this last night but I didn't know if it went through, I didn't see it.
Sorry if you received it twice.

Thanks guys,

I drove it last night and ran great. Had it up to 60 mph for about 20 miles.
Temperature was in the lower 70's. Maybe I didn't drive it long enough. When I
have trouble is when the temperature is in the 90's.

Let me ask another question, could oil make the car run hotter. I did an oil
change and used Auto Zone brand oil. I usually use Valvoline oil. I still used
20 W 50 like I always use. Just trying to think of things I did since problem
started.

Also what is the reason for the spacer on the fuel pump? I heard two different
reasons. One is that it makes the fuel pump run a little cooler and the other
is you can use a fuel pump from a different model car (like a Chevy) that's
more common.

I'm going to put a 160 degree thermostat in to see if that helps. Also going
to put a new fuel pump on but I can't understand why it only does it on a hot
day. Unless the fuel pump acts up when it gets hot?

Matt, you wouldn't happen to be going to the Vintage Grand Prix at Pittsburgh
this weekend? I'll be there on Saturday but as of right now I wouldn't be
driving my Spitfire there.

Greg
1978 Spitfire 1500
Ohio
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Mail From: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>

Roger,

I'll have to check that out. Thanks for the tip.

Greg
1978 Spitfire 1500

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Elliott" <(email redacted)>
To: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "Spitfire Group" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Spits] Sputtering when hot above 50 mph


> Hi Greg,
>
> Fuel filters are a good start. I would also check all of the rubber hoses
> under the car. My wife's 250 had gas problems - I chased it all over the
> place - New filter, new fuel pump. Finally saw one of the rubber lines
> had a kink in it. It must have been bent in the same place for years, but
> it finally got soft enough that when there was suction through the line it
> would collapse. I suspect it could be affected by heat as well.
>
> Roger Elliott
>
> Greg Stull wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have been having problems with my Spitfire sputtering like it's running
>> out
>> of gas above 50 mph on hot days after it runs for a while at that speed
>> especially going up hill.
>> Thanks for any ideas.
>>
>> Greg
>> 1978 Spitfire 1500
>> _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________

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Mail From: Richard Gosling <(email redacted)>

> "I'm going to put a 160 degree thermostat in to see if that helps...."



You cannot fix an overheating problem by using a lower temperature
thermostat (unless the existing 'stat was faulty and failing to open, in
which case a new standard temperature 'stat would work just as well). If
your coolant is at 240deg, it makes no difference what 'stat you've got in
there, a 180deg 'stat will be just as open as a 160deg 'stat.

All that a lower temperature 'stat will do is open when the coolant reaches
160deg, delaying the engine getting to it's optimum operating temperature
(more like 200deg), and allowing the engine to run cooler than optimum if
conditions allow (i.e. travelling at reasonable constant speed with little
load on the engine). If your engine has got a problem and wants to run hot,
it'll reach that temperature regardless of what thermostat is fitted.

Richard
_______________________________________________

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Mail From: "Joe Curry" <(email redacted)>

If the car does not already have a heat shield between the exhaust manifold
and carb, I would start by installing one. Those things are easy to
construct from sheet aluminum and are very effective at preventing the heat
from the exhaust from boiling the fuel in the float bowl.

Hopefully that will solve your problem.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Greg Stull
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 4:22 AM
To: Spitfire Group
Subject: [Spits] Sputtering when hot above 50 mph

Sent this last night but I didn't know if it went through, I didn't see it.
Sorry if you received it twice.

Thanks guys,

I drove it last night and ran great. Had it up to 60 mph for about 20 miles.
Temperature was in the lower 70's. Maybe I didn't drive it long enough. When
I
have trouble is when the temperature is in the 90's.

Let me ask another question, could oil make the car run hotter. I did an oil
change and used Auto Zone brand oil. I usually use Valvoline oil. I still
used
20 W 50 like I always use. Just trying to think of things I did since
problem
started.

Also what is the reason for the spacer on the fuel pump? I heard two
different
reasons. One is that it makes the fuel pump run a little cooler and the
other
is you can use a fuel pump from a different model car (like a Chevy) that's
more common.

I'm going to put a 160 degree thermostat in to see if that helps. Also going
to put a new fuel pump on but I can't understand why it only does it on a
hot
day. Unless the fuel pump acts up when it gets hot?

Matt, you wouldn't happen to be going to the Vintage Grand Prix at
Pittsburgh
this weekend? I'll be there on Saturday but as of right now I wouldn't be
driving my Spitfire there.

Greg
1978 Spitfire 1500
Ohio
_______________________________________________

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Mail From: Douglas Braun <(email redacted)>

Did you ever resolve the potential fuel flow issue?

If not, here is one test to do: Disconnect the fuel line at the carb
input and route it to a jar or can. Disconnect the ignition so the
engine cannot possibly run, Have a helper crank the starter for a few
seconds. You should see a series of solid spurts of fuel from the end
of the line as the engine cranks. Even at cranking RPMs, the pump
should be able to supply more fuel than the engine would consume at
full power.

Also check for any crud blocking the input fitting on the carb. I
think the Strombergs have a strainer there.

Doug
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Mail From: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>

I have a heat shield between the carb and exhaust manifold.

Greg
1978 Spitfire 1500

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Curry" <(email redacted)>
To: "'Greg Stull'" <(email redacted)>; "'Spitfire Group'"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Spits] Sputtering when hot above 50 mph


> If the car does not already have a heat shield between the exhaust
> manifold
> and carb, I would start by installing one. Those things are easy to
> construct from sheet aluminum and are very effective at preventing the
> heat
> from the exhaust from boiling the fuel in the float bowl.
>
> Hopefully that will solve your problem.
>
> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Greg Stull
> Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 4:22 AM
> To: Spitfire Group
> Subject: [Spits] Sputtering when hot above 50 mph
>
> Sent this last night but I didn't know if it went through, I didn't see
> it.
> Sorry if you received it twice.
>
> Thanks guys,
>
> I drove it last night and ran great. Had it up to 60 mph for about 20
> miles.
> Temperature was in the lower 70's. Maybe I didn't drive it long enough.
> When
> I
> have trouble is when the temperature is in the 90's.
>
> Let me ask another question, could oil make the car run hotter. I did an
> oil
> change and used Auto Zone brand oil. I usually use Valvoline oil. I still
> used
> 20 W 50 like I always use. Just trying to think of things I did since
> problem
> started.
>
> Also what is the reason for the spacer on the fuel pump? I heard two
> different
> reasons. One is that it makes the fuel pump run a little cooler and the
> other
> is you can use a fuel pump from a different model car (like a Chevy)
> that's
> more common.
>
> I'm going to put a 160 degree thermostat in to see if that helps. Also
> going
> to put a new fuel pump on but I can't understand why it only does it on a
> hot
> day. Unless the fuel pump acts up when it gets hot?
>
> Matt, you wouldn't happen to be going to the Vintage Grand Prix at
> Pittsburgh
> this weekend? I'll be there on Saturday but as of right now I wouldn't be
> driving my Spitfire there.
>
> Greg
> 1978 Spitfire 1500
> Ohio
> _______________________________________________
>
> (email redacted)
> Donate: team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation $11.47
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> autox.team.net/mailman/options/spitfires/(email redacted)
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Mail From: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>

Thanks Richard, I won't waste my time with a new thermostat. I changed the
fluid last summer when I put new hoses on.

Here's where the gauge runs. It might go up to the 3/4 mark but not above even
in traffic. Is that running to hot? It was close to 90 when I took the
picture.

What in degrees are the marks? I was going to hook up another gauge I had but
I didn't have the right adapter.

Greg
1978 Spitfire 1500
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Gosling
To: Greg Stull
Cc: Spitfire Group
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Spits] Sputtering when hot above 50 mph


"I'm going to put a 160 degree thermostat in to see if that helps...."


You cannot fix an overheating problem by using a lower temperature
thermostat (unless the existing 'stat was faulty and failing to open, in which
case a new standard temperature 'stat would work just as well). If your
coolant is at 240deg, it makes no difference what 'stat you've got in there, a
180deg 'stat will be just as open as a 160deg 'stat.

All that a lower temperature 'stat will do is open when the coolant reaches
160deg, delaying the engine getting to it's optimum operating temperature
(more like 200deg), and allowing the engine to run cooler than optimum if
conditions allow (i.e. travelling at reasonable constant speed with little
load on the engine). If your engine has got a problem and wants to run hot,
it'll reach that temperature regardless of what thermostat is fitted.

Richard

[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type image/jpeg which had a name of 100_9604a.jpg]
_______________________________________________

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Mail From: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>

I have a Weber carb. Do they have a strainer? I'll have to check.

I'll do your test as soon as I find a helper. Thanks.

Greg
1978 Spitfire 1500

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Braun" <(email redacted)>
To: "Greg Stull" <(email redacted)>; "Spitfire Group"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Spits] Sputtering when hot above 50 mph


> Did you ever resolve the potential fuel flow issue?
>
> If not, here is one test to do: Disconnect the fuel line at the carb
> input and route it to a jar or can. Disconnect the ignition so the
> engine cannot possibly run, Have a helper crank the starter for a few
> seconds. You should see a series of solid spurts of fuel from the end
> of the line as the engine cranks. Even at cranking RPMs, the pump
> should be able to supply more fuel than the engine would consume at
> full power.
>
> Also check for any crud blocking the input fitting on the carb. I
> think the Strombergs have a strainer there.
>
> Doug
_______________________________________________

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Mail From: Greg Rowe <(email redacted)>

Not a perfect fit for the evidence, but easy enough to check - possibly
your vapor recovery system is partially blocked? Eventually a vacuum
builds up in the tank making it impossible to pump enough gas. You
check for it simply by popping open the gas cap when the symptoms
occur. If you hear a whoosh of in-rushing air, then yep, you have
a blocked vapor recovery system.

Good luck!

"Other Greg" Rowe


> From: (email redacted)
> To: (email redacted)
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 07:22:14 -0400
> Subject: [Spits] Sputtering when hot above 50 mph
>
> Sent this last night but I didn't know if it went through, I didn't see it.
> Sorry if you received it twice.
>
> Thanks guys,
>
> I drove it last night and ran great. Had it up to 60 mph for about 20
miles.
> Temperature was in the lower 70's. Maybe I didn't drive it long enough. When
I
> have trouble is when the temperature is in the 90's.
>
> Let me ask another question, could oil make the car run hotter. I did an
oil
> change and used Auto Zone brand oil. I usually use Valvoline oil. I still
used
> 20 W 50 like I always use. Just trying to think of things I did since
problem
> started.
>
> Also what is the reason for the spacer on the fuel pump? I heard two
different
> reasons. One is that it makes the fuel pump run a little cooler and the
other
> is you can use a fuel pump from a different model car (like a Chevy) that's
> more common.
>
> I'm going to put a 160 degree thermostat in to see if that helps. Also
going
> to put a new fuel pump on but I can't understand why it only does it on a
hot
> day. Unless the fuel pump acts up when it gets hot?
>
> Matt, you wouldn't happen to be going to the Vintage Grand Prix at
Pittsburgh
> this weekend? I'll be there on Saturday but as of right now I wouldn't be
> driving my Spitfire there.
>
> Greg
> 1978 Spitfire 1500
> Ohio
> __

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