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cluster master cylinder question - should be CLUTCH

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Mail From: George Loriot <(email redacted)>

I apologize for the word "cluster" - it should be 'clutch' master
cylinder.Weak excuse: I'm working on a computer cluster. Not much of an
excuse....

> From: (email redacted)
> To: (email redacted)
> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 07:59:18 -0400
> Subject: [6pack] cluster master cylinder question
>
> Hi Listers,I have a more or less stock 76 TR6 daily driver and there's an
odd
> thing with the clutch master cylinder - it doesn't release all the way.
The
> pushrod has about 3/8" slack before it hits the piston. There's a tiny bit
of
> play at the point where the pushrod connects to the pedal, but the slack is
> really due to the cylinder piston not returning to fully released. The
result
> is that the clutch point is only about 1" from the floor and it makes
> shifting stiff. The slave pushrod has almost to play, and is in the center
> hole of the release lever thingy.
> For the first few years I owned the car, the clutch point was high and the
> shifts were easy, with no drag at all. This 'low clutch point' has been
going
> on for awhile, but other TR6 issues have kept me busy. Now I want to fix
this
> and am asking the wisdom of the list if they've seen this before. Is this
> something that requires bleeding? I haven't touched t he clutch of linkage
in
> the 10 years/50K miles I've had the car. Except I recently replaced the
slave
> pushrod with an adjustable one to see if that would help. It didn't.Am I
> crazy or can the master piston get stuck in it's bore partway toward
release?
> I've had no fluid leaks in the clutch hydraulics.
> Any help will be greatly appreciated.
> George Loriot1976 TR6
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Mail From: Sally or Dick Taylor <(email redacted)>

George---Interesting story, and seems to be a little different than the usual clutch woes. I'll toss out a couple of suggestions for you to check:

a) Take out the clutch MC and shake out the inner workings. We want to be sure that the little tang (under the spring) is holding the parts in their place. If this assembly has come apart, squeeze it all together and depress the tang, as instructed by the repair manual or the instruction sheet that comes with the CMC rebuild kit.

b) If all was OK here, next consider what goes on when the clutch itself is released and re-engages. The diaphragm fingers alone is what pushes all of the linkage back to the 'rest' position. The "adjustable" rod doesn't do squat, and it's a crime for vendors to suggest that the TR6 clutch play problems can be cured with one of these. (All play at the SC is taken up hydraulically) Anyway...the stroke length here should be close to 1/2 inch at the slave cylinder. IF you're not seeing this, AND a) above is/was not the problem, AND the MC clevis pin linkage is reasonably without slop, then what could be going on is that the fork pin is broken and was the culprit all along. (Altho I suspect it's in the a) area)

Please write back. I for one always like to hear how these things are resolved.

Dick
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Mail From: William McIntire <(email redacted)>

Dick - George - and All,

Your post jogged what little memory I have left.

Back in the early '60's like '62 maybe, TR3's developed similar problems as described here. Problem was the spring in the clutch master cylinders were breaking. Results, same problem as here. Was only one model year as I remember can't remember which one, apparently a metallurgical problem with springs. We had to use VW beetle springs to repair as that was all that was available. Doubt if it is the problem here, but history has a tendency to repeat.

FWIW, hope it helps

Bill
'70 6 one owner

----- Original Message -----
From: Sally or Dick Taylor <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2010 4:17 pm
Subject: Re: [6pack] FW: cluster master cylinder question - should be CLUTCH master cylinder..
To: George Loriot <(email redacted)>, 6pack <(email redacted)>

> George---Interesting story, and seems to be a little different
> than the usual clutch woes. I'll toss out a couple of
> suggestions for you to check:
>
> a) Take out the clutch MC and shake out the inner workings. We
> want to be sure that the little tang (under the spring) is
> holding the parts in their place. If this assembly has come
> apart, squeeze it all together and depress the tang, as
> instructed by the repair manual or the instruction sheet that
> comes with the CMC rebuild kit.
>
> b) If all was OK here, next consider what goes on when the
> clutch itself is released and re-engages. The diaphragm fingers
> alone is what pushes all of the linkage back to the 'rest'
> position. The "adjustable" rod doesn't do squat, and it's a
> crime for vendors to suggest that the TR6 clutch play problems
> can be cured with one of these. (All play at the SC is taken up
> hydraulically) Anyway...the stroke length here should be
> close to 1/2 inch at the slave cylinder. IF you're not seeing
> this, AND a) above is/was not the problem, AND the MC clevis pin
> linkage is reasonably without slop, then what could be going on
> is that the fork pin is broken and was the culprit all along.
> (Altho I suspect it's in the a) area)
>
> Please write back. I for one always like to hear how these
> things are resolved.
>
> Dick
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Mail From: George Loriot <(email redacted)>

Thanks to the list - Bob, Dick, Bill - looks like it was a bit of 3 things:
egg-shaped holes at the pedal/pushrod joint AND a sticky piston in the M/C.
Once the M/C was out, the pushrod had about 1/4" of travel before it hit the
piston. There had been a little loss of fluid, inside the boot, that didn't
show up on the outside or as a loss at the M/C reservoir. But it was enough
to gunk up the area around and under the washer that stops the piston. And
the return spring may has lost its moxie.... So the piston never returned all
the way. I was surprised that the cylinder bore looks good, no pits, so
probably a little honing and rebuild. I'm tempted to be really cheap (er,
frugal) and reuse the seal but i'll get a kit. I'm bringing the clutch pedal
and pushrod to my friendly machinist and have him recenter the pushrod, maybe
with a brass bushing that can be replaced if the egg-shapes return.And I'll
order a new return spring
Thanks to the list for the suggestions.
George



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Mail From: Sally or Dick Taylor <(email redacted)>

George---Have the machinist find the center or the original hole in the pedal
arm and bore it out to accept a 7/16x5/16 inch bushing. As you said, then all
that will be required is pushing out the worn bushing and squeezing in the
new. Next time!

An oval in the push rod is harder to fix. Don't know of any parts supplier
that will sell you a new rod, unless you spring for a whole new MC. You you
want, you can cut the thru the length of the pushrod, add an eigth inch to it,
and braze it back together. This will compensate for the loss of length due to
wear. Not really necessary, but do-able.

Dick
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Mail From: George Loriot <(email redacted)>

Listersthanks to everyone's suggestions I'm a happy camper once again. The
clutch I-won't-disengage-all-the-way problem was a combination of: egg-shaped
holes in the pedal arm and the master cylinder pushrod, slight leak in master
cylinder, weak return spring in slave cylinder, and probably needed some
bleeding. It looks like the dreaded clutch fork pin was ok, since now the
cluthc is releasing nicely. I had a machinist reposition and drill a new
bushing in both the arm and pushrod, new clevis pin. I lightly honed both
cylinders and installed new seals and return spring, and replaced the flexible
hose (it looked a little bulgy, a technical term with a British accent).Bled
the system and I'm back on the road again. Thanks to all listers for their
suggestions; this list is great. it's saved my tush on several occasions.
George Loriot1976 TR5

From: (email redacted)
To: (email redacted)
CC: (email redacted)
Subject: RE: [6pack] FW: cluster master cylinder question - should be CLUTCH
master cylinder..
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 18:12:33 +0000







George---Have the machinist find the center or the original hole in the pedal
arm and bore it out to accept a 7/16x5/16 inch bushing. As you said, then all
that will be required is pushing out the worn bushing and squeezing in the
new. Next time!

An oval in the push rod is harder to fix. Don't know of any parts supplier
that will sell you a new rod, unless you spring for a whole new MC. You you
want, you can cut the thru the length of the pushrod, add an eigth inch to it,
and braze it back together. This will compensate for the loss of length due to
wear. Not really necessary, but do-able.

Dick
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