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Possible engine swap for Tr6

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Mail From: "Ryan Kroelinger" <(email redacted)>

Hello all! I am currently in the process of finding a Tr6, and one of my
main interests is swapping out the stock 6cyl with something more modern.
Is there a common engine that is used for this? I have seen Supra 5 speed
transmission swaps talked about, is it possible to swap in a gen 4 or 5
supra motor? The gen 4 uses the 5 speed so that seems more likely, but a
firebreathing 2JZGE or 2JZGTE turbo motor in. I may sound crazy but let me
know what has been done. Thanks a ton!
Ryan Kroelinger


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Mail From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>

Ryan,

Anything is possible. Just keep in mind that the TR6 has it's weak
points when powered by 110 HP, and the strain will be increased with a
bigger powerplant.

Check out : members.aol.com/danmas/examples.htm for some
ideas.

Jim (Currently going down a similar path)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Kroelinger" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:30 AM
Subject: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> Hello all! I am currently in the process of finding a Tr6, and one of
my
> main interests is swapping out the stock 6cyl with something more
modern.
> Is there a common engine that is used for this? I have seen Supra 5
speed
> transmission swaps talked about, is it possible to swap in a gen 4 or
5
> supra motor? The gen 4 uses the 5 speed so that seems more likely,
but a
> firebreathing 2JZGE or 2JZGTE turbo motor in. I may sound crazy but
let me
> know what has been done. Thanks a ton!
> Ryan Kroelinger


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Mail From: "Phil Parcells" <(email redacted)>

Ryan,
Check out this TR6 on ebay:
cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1836996135

It's got a chevy engine. Somehow it was shoehorned in!

Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Kroelinger" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:30 AM
Subject: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> Hello all! I am currently in the process of finding a Tr6, and one of my
> main interests is swapping out the stock 6cyl with something more modern.
> Is there a common engine that is used for this? I have seen Supra 5 speed
> transmission swaps talked about, is it possible to swap in a gen 4 or 5
> supra motor? The gen 4 uses the 5 speed so that seems more likely, but a
> firebreathing 2JZGE or 2JZGTE turbo motor in. I may sound crazy but let
me
> know what has been done. Thanks a ton!
> Ryan Kroelinger


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Mail From: "Terry Geiger" <(email redacted)>

There is a car in town that has a six cylinder Datsun 240/260/280z engine/transmission. I have driven the car and it runs well. Also, the 5 speed is nice at highway speeds. This car was for sale at some point. If you want me to check into it I will see what I can find out.

You may want to consider upgrading the original engine (electronic ignition, spin on oil filter, etc.) instead of doing a complete swap. It's a lot less work and won't devalue the car. My TR6 is a daily driver and it gives me very little trouble. If you really want to go modern there are some folks out there that offer electronic injection kits for the TR6 six cylinder.

Terry
'74 TR6





> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ryan Kroelinger [SMTP:(email redacted)]
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 1:30 AM
> To: (email redacted)
> Subject: Possible engine swap for Tr6
>
> Hello all! I am currently in the process of finding a Tr6, and one of my
> main interests is swapping out the stock 6cyl with something more modern.
> Is there a common engine that is used for this? I have seen Supra 5 speed
> transmission swaps talked about, is it possible to swap in a gen 4 or 5
> supra motor? The gen 4 uses the 5 speed so that seems more likely, but a
> firebreathing 2JZGE or 2JZGTE turbo motor in. I may sound crazy but let me
> know what has been done. Thanks a ton!
> Ryan Kroelinger


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Mail From: "Vink, Graham" <(email redacted)>

I've seen Big Healeys with Chevy small-block v-8s, but they didn't have
independent rear suspension, so they had fewer U-joints to break!

Interestingly, a Chevy small block is LIGHTER than the Healey 6, which was
kind of famous as a lump 'o lead. Not sure of the difference vis a vis the
Triumph engine.

That said, I would still argue in favor of keeping the original engine. Tons
of torque, good longevity, and you can always bump up the power with
suitable intake and exhaust modifications. And, frankly, I think adding too
much power not only puts too much stress on the brakes, suspension and other
components, with potentially serious results (ie front suspension failure),
but it also tempts one to exceed the handling limits of the car ... which,
realistically, are fairly modest to begin with.

(and before I get flamed: yes, I know that Triumphs can be made to handle a
lot better, but to me that's not really the point of a Triumph ... if I
wanted great handling, I'd buy a Corvette. And, ultimately, you are still
limited by the high-flex chassis, the relatively unsophisticated suspension
and the lack of suspension travel in the rear ... plus the limits on tire
width unless you're doing really major mods)

Graham



-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Kroelinger [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:30 AM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Possible engine swap for Tr6


Hello all! I am currently in the process of finding a Tr6, and one
of my
main interests is swapping out the stock 6cyl with something more modern.
Is there a common engine that is used for this? I have seen Supra 5 speed
transmission swaps talked about, is it possible to swap in a gen 4 or 5
supra motor? The gen 4 uses the 5 speed so that seems more likely, but a
firebreathing 2JZGE or 2JZGTE turbo motor in. I may sound crazy but let me
know what has been done. Thanks a ton!
Ryan Kroelinger


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Mail From: Will <(email redacted)>

> And, frankly, I think adding too
>much power not only puts too much stress on the brakes, suspension and other
>components, with potentially serious results (ie front suspension failure),
>but it also tempts one to exceed the handling limits of the car ... which,
>realistically, are fairly modest to begin with.
>
>(and before I get flamed: yes, I know that Triumphs can be made to handle a
>lot better, but to me that's not really the point of a Triumph ... if I
>wanted great handling, I'd buy a Corvette. And, ultimately, you are still
>limited by the high-flex chassis, the relatively unsophisticated suspension
>and the lack of suspension travel in the rear ... plus the limits on tire
>width unless you're doing really major mods)
>
>Graham
>


There should be plenty of safety margin in there somewhere,
considering that the 'rest of the world' PI cars started out with
about half as much power again compared to North American market cars.
--
William Davies
1975 TR6 PI
CR6157-O


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Mail From: (email redacted) (Sally or Dick Taylor)

Ryan K.----If one wanted to swap out the TR6 engine, I think the Supra
Turbo engine, with their 300HP would be a real kick in the pants. It HAS
to fit better in the engine bay than any V-8, (tho Dan Masters seems to
have worked in the Ford 5.0 rather nicely.)

So far as to whether the Triumph drive train would hold up, consider
that the stock TR engine transfers more torque in first gear than just
about any other engine can in second gear on up. This simply means to
limit the 'hole shots' and have your fun once out of first gear.

Dick Taylor


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Mail From: "Navarrette, Vance" <(email redacted)>

Sorry, but I think that leaving the stock engine in there, and
spending a few dollars tweaking it would be much more satisfactory over the
long run. Installing a Chevy engine will destroy the resale value (Think
about it. Would YOU buy a car with an engine upgrade of this nature? There
are so many unknowns...). Lots of custom fabrication would be required too
(motor mounts, tranny adapter, etc)
Skimming the head, porting, K&N filters, and a camshaft should
EASILY get the car to 140-150 HP. Think about this. Doesn't a 50% increase
in power sound pretty good? And you know it's safe, because the PI version
was rated at this, so the factory was confident that durability would not be
affected.
If that isn't enough, a custom exhaust (and perhaps a header) would
add another 15HP or so, and could be removed when the car is sold.
I had really good results on the American cars that I have tweaked.
Don't see why the TR6 should be any different.

Vance Navarrette
Mimosa Yellow '74 TR6

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Parcells [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:50 AM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6


Ryan,
Check out this TR6 on ebay:
cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1836996135

It's got a chevy engine. Somehow it was shoehorned in!

Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Kroelinger" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:30 AM
Subject: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> Hello all! I am currently in the process of finding a Tr6, and one of my
> main interests is swapping out the stock 6cyl with something more modern.
> Is there a common engine that is used for this? I have seen Supra 5 speed
> transmission swaps talked about, is it possible to swap in a gen 4 or 5
> supra motor? The gen 4 uses the 5 speed so that seems more likely, but a
> firebreathing 2JZGE or 2JZGTE turbo motor in. I may sound crazy but let
me
> know what has been done. Thanks a ton!
> Ryan Kroelinger


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Mail From: "Eric Conrad" <(email redacted)>

Regarding my thoughts about engine swaps. For anyone else, I would contact
Joe Curry (not sure whether he's on this list, but he is on both the Triumph
list and the Spitfire list). He has inserted a Honda S2000 engine into his
spitfire racer, and according to the article I read (I believe it was in a
British Triumph magazine), he absolutely loves the engine, can rev it high,
and has enough power for his needs.

Personally, I'm not of the engine swap mold, but am always interested in
seeing other ideas.

Eric Conrad
'76 TR6

From: "Ryan Kroelinger" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:30 AM
Subject: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> Hello all! I am currently in the process of finding a Tr6, and one of my
> main interests is swapping out the stock 6cyl with something more modern.
> Is there a common engine that is used for this? I have seen Supra 5 speed
> transmission swaps talked about, is it possible to swap in a gen 4 or 5
> supra motor? The gen 4 uses the 5 speed so that seems more likely, but a
> firebreathing 2JZGE or 2JZGTE turbo motor in. I may sound crazy but let
me
> know what has been done. Thanks a ton!
> Ryan Kroelinger


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Mail From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>

No offense Dick, but I have to disagree.

The weakest links I see in a stock car (after thrust-washers, clutch and
tranny) are in the rear end/ rear axle bearing components. That is based
on failures on NON- modified cars. Although there are a few folks using
big motors in TR6 cars with the stock back portions, I feel it is
ill-advised. A lot of the present day racers ( bless you all) changed
these components due to sometimes spectacular failure........ imagine
loosing a back wheel when the axle shears in the outer hub! One other
note:Kastner and company used MODIFIED axles and Volvo halfshafts on
their successful racers.

One of the other posters mentioned the PI cars having 150 HP. That is
true. It is also true that 150 HP coming thru a 3:45 rear transmits less
stress on the system than 150 HP thru a 3:71 rear. All PI cars came with
a 3:45 rear, and most US cars come with a 3.71. I would also respond by
asking how much is too much power? :^) I personally am after 300 HP,
and that is absolutely out of the question with the stock engine. I am
not rich, and seeking 160 stretches the pocketbook.

Ryan may be OK with Corvair axles and an early diff with a hardened ring
and pinion. In addition, I certainly would beef up the diff mounts on
the frame. At a minimum I would talk to the folks at
pond.com/~britcars/ to see what their experience recommends.

Good Luck however you choose to go Ryan

Jim

PS
One of the things to check on that combo Ryan, is where the shifter
ends up in the passenger compartment. Take a tape measure to the JY and
measure from the back of the motor to the center of the shifter on the
Supra, and compare to the TR to get a general idea. Ergonomics really
affect the end result in any conversion. That's why there aren't many
daily driver Cobra's ;^0


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally or Dick Taylor" <(email redacted)>
To: "Ryan Kroelinger" <(email redacted)>
Cc: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> Ryan K.----If one wanted to swap out the TR6 engine, I think the Supra
> Turbo engine, with their 300HP would be a real kick in the pants. It
HAS
> to fit better in the engine bay than any V-8, (tho Dan Masters seems
to
> have worked in the Ford 5.0 rather nicely.)
>
> So far as to whether the Triumph drive train would hold up, consider
> that the stock TR engine transfers more torque in first gear than just
> about any other engine can in second gear on up. This simply means to
> limit the 'hole shots' and have your fun once out of first gear.
>
> Dick Taylor


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Mail From: "Bernard Robbins" <(email redacted)>

Hi Ryan,

It may also be worth investigating the Nissan series of engine, box and
driveline components.
Looking in my skyline, the nissan straight 6 seems to be a similar size to
the triumph six whereas I think the Toyota is a bit bigger.
My skyline has an RB25DE motor which is approx 200hp at the flywheel.
The other variants are:
RB20DET 2lt DOHC single turbo ~ 250hp
RB25DET 2.5lt DOHC single turbo ~ 300hp
RB26DETT 2.6lt DOHC twin turbo ~ 300hp stock (the local boys get another 100
odd hp by changing the chip)
I don't know what the import duties are in the states, but you can probably

Check out skylinesdownunder.co.nz/tech/importengineguide.html for
a bit more info.

Nissan also has a good rear end. The turbo cars all had LSD's designed for
IRS. I'm sure these could be modified for the TR chassis as they appear to
have similar mountings.

Hope this helps and let us know how you get on!

'71 2500PI
'73 TR6PI

Regards

Bernard Robbins

Network Solutions
NEC New Zealand Ltd
Phone 04 381 6274
Fax 04 381 6284
Email (email redacted)
nec.co.nz


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)]On
Behalf Of James Franks
Sent: Tuesday, 18 June 2002 11:43
To: Sally or Dick Taylor
Cc: Six pack
Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6


No offense Dick, but I have to disagree.

The weakest links I see in a stock car (after thrust-washers, clutch and
tranny) are in the rear end/ rear axle bearing components. That is based
on failures on NON- modified cars. Although there are a few folks using
big motors in TR6 cars with the stock back portions, I feel it is
ill-advised. A lot of the present day racers ( bless you all) changed
these components due to sometimes spectacular failure........ imagine
loosing a back wheel when the axle shears in the outer hub! One other
note:Kastner and company used MODIFIED axles and Volvo halfshafts on
their successful racers.

One of the other posters mentioned the PI cars having 150 HP. That is
true. It is also true that 150 HP coming thru a 3:45 rear transmits less
stress on the system than 150 HP thru a 3:71 rear. All PI cars came with
a 3:45 rear, and most US cars come with a 3.71. I would also respond by
asking how much is too much power? :^) I personally am after 300 HP,
and that is absolutely out of the question with the stock engine. I am
not rich, and seeking 160 stretches the pocketbook.

Ryan may be OK with Corvair axles and an early diff with a hardened ring
and pinion. In addition, I certainly would beef up the diff mounts on
the frame. At a minimum I would talk to the folks at
pond.com/~britcars/ to see what their experience recommends.

Good Luck however you choose to go Ryan

Jim

PS
One of the things to check on that combo Ryan, is where the shifter
ends up in the passenger compartment. Take a tape measure to the JY and
measure from the back of the motor to the center of the shifter on the
Supra, and compare to the TR to get a general idea. Ergonomics really
affect the end result in any conversion. That's why there aren't many
daily driver Cobra's ;^0


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally or Dick Taylor" <(email redacted)>
To: "Ryan Kroelinger" <(email redacted)>
Cc: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> Ryan K.----If one wanted to swap out the TR6 engine, I think the Supra
> Turbo engine, with their 300HP would be a real kick in the pants. It
HAS
> to fit better in the engine bay than any V-8, (tho Dan Masters seems
to
> have worked in the Ford 5.0 rather nicely.)
>
> So far as to whether the Triumph drive train would hold up, consider
> that the stock TR engine transfers more torque in first gear than just
> about any other engine can in second gear on up. This simply means to
> limit the 'hole shots' and have your fun once out of first gear.
>
> Dick Taylor


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Mail From: Ed McGuirk <(email redacted)>

The truth is that any well done engine swap into a TR6 will have to replace
almost the whole drivetrain especially at 300 HP. There will be almost
nothing left but the shell.

I've got a couple of fetishes. I want less weight and more HP. If I was
going to try it, I would probably want to give a supercharged rotary engine
a try. That would be about 300HP and a few hundred pounds lighter. (I
already know the exhaust won't sound right though)

There are so many British cars I would think about butchering for this idea
but I have kind of a soft spot for keeping the TR6 relatively intact.

But then, I'm just nuts.
Ed McGuirk

At 07:13 PM 6/17/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:42:54 -0400
>From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>
>Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6
>
>No offense Dick, but I have to disagree.
>
>The weakest links I see in a stock car (after thrust-washers, clutch and
>tranny) are in the rear end/ rear axle bearing components. That is based
>on failures on NON- modified cars. Although there are a few folks using
>big motors in TR6 cars with the stock back portions, I feel it is
>ill-advised. A lot of the present day racers ( bless you all) changed
>these components due to sometimes spectacular failure........ imagine
>loosing a back wheel when the axle shears in the outer hub! One other
>note:Kastner and company used MODIFIED axles and Volvo halfshafts on
>their successful racers.
>
> One of the other posters mentioned the PI cars having 150 HP. That is
>true. It is also true that 150 HP coming thru a 3:45 rear transmits less
>stress on the system than 150 HP thru a 3:71 rear. All PI cars came with
>a 3:45 rear, and most US cars come with a 3.71. I would also respond by
>asking how much is too much power? :^) I personally am after 300 HP,
>and that is absolutely out of the question with the stock engine. I am
>not rich, and seeking 160 stretches the pocketbook.
>
>Ryan may be OK with Corvair axles and an early diff with a hardened ring
>and pinion. In addition, I certainly would beef up the diff mounts on
>the frame. At a minimum I would talk to the folks at
>pond.com/~britcars/ to see what their experience recommends.
>
>Good Luck however you choose to go Ryan
>
>Jim
>
>PS
>One of the things to check on that combo Ryan, is where the shifter
>ends up in the passenger compartment. Take a tape measure to the JY and
>measure from the back of the motor to the center of the shifter on the
>Supra, and compare to the TR to get a general idea. Ergonomics really
>affect the end result in any conversion. That's why there aren't many
>daily driver Cobra's ;^0


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Mail From: Ryan Miles <(email redacted)>

Ryan,

Bravo! I have always thought that a V8 was not the answer for the TR6. In recent years I have come to believe that turbo charged engines are way cool. There is a TR6 with a turbocharged Ford (not my personal taste, but I guess it runs) 4 cylinder engine that makes ~300 horsepower. Personally I would like to see someone put a Porsche 944 Turbo engine and management system in a TR6. A stock 944 turbo does 0 to sixty in the low 6's and the passing power is incredible. The 944 motors were factory tested on the high side of 300, and modified they can make 600. I bet the Supra motor would reall shove the car along nicely too.

As neat as I think a turbocharged engine would be, I would also like to point out that you can make a TR6 engine run well enough to have a lot of fun. I don't really know why, but I am having more fun trying to make power with the original engine than I ever would if I tried to put a completely different engine in the car. The job of hacking the car apart sounds like a lot of work to me, and I would be afraid of getting discouraged and giving up. My car makes about 140 horsepower right now, and of course I want more. I am building another engine for my TR250 that should have quite a little more grunt to it. Today I got my newest go fast goodie.... a supercharger. I really think that turbos are neater, but the price was right, so I will play with it and see if I can make it run well.

It's all about having fun... make sure that you build the car that YOU want, not the car that will get you the least amount of flack from others, you will enjoy it more in the end.

Ryan Miles
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Mail From: "Vink, Graham" <(email redacted)>

re rotary engine in a TR6: very interesting idea! (I own an RX-7)

on the RX-7 user boards, there is occasional discussion about putting a
turbo Buick v-6 into an RX-7, which many of us regard as the ultimate
heresy.

but no question that it would be a lot of horsepower!

Graham



-----Original Message-----
From: Ed McGuirk [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 10:57 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6


The truth is that any well done engine swap into a TR6 will have to replace
almost the whole drivetrain especially at 300 HP. There will be almost
nothing left but the shell.

I've got a couple of fetishes. I want less weight and more HP. If I was
going to try it, I would probably want to give a supercharged rotary engine
a try. That would be about 300HP and a few hundred pounds lighter. (I
already know the exhaust won't sound right though)

There are so many British cars I would think about butchering for this idea
but I have kind of a soft spot for keeping the TR6 relatively intact.

But then, I'm just nuts.
Ed McGuirk

At 07:13 PM 6/17/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:42:54 -0400
>From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>
>Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6
>
>No offense Dick, but I have to disagree.
>
>The weakest links I see in a stock car (after thrust-washers, clutch and
>tranny) are in the rear end/ rear axle bearing components. That is based
>on failures on NON- modified cars. Although there are a few folks using
>big motors in TR6 cars with the stock back portions, I feel it is
>ill-advised. A lot of the present day racers ( bless you all) changed
>these components due to sometimes spectacular failure........ imagine
>loosing a back wheel when the axle shears in the outer hub! One other
>note:Kastner and company used MODIFIED axles and Volvo halfshafts on
>their successful racers.
>
> One of the other posters mentioned the PI cars having 150 HP. That is
>true. It is also true that 150 HP coming thru a 3:45 rear transmits less
>stress on the system than 150 HP thru a 3:71 rear. All PI cars came with
>a 3:45 rear, and most US cars come with a 3.71. I would also respond by
>asking how much is too much power? :^) I personally am after 300 HP,
>and that is absolutely out of the question with the stock engine. I am
>not rich, and seeking 160 stretches the pocketbook.
>
>Ryan may be OK with Corvair axles and an early diff with a hardened ring
>and pinion. In addition, I certainly would beef up the diff mounts on
>the frame. At a minimum I would talk to the folks at
>pond.com/~britcars/ to see what their experience recommends.
>
>Good Luck however you choose to go Ryan
>
>Jim
>
>PS
>One of the things to check on that combo Ryan, is where the shifter
>ends up in the passenger compartment. Take a tape measure to the JY and
>measure from the back of the motor to the center of the shifter on the
>Supra, and compare to the TR to get a general idea. Ergonomics really
>affect the end result in any conversion. That's why there aren't many
>daily driver Cobra's ;^0


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Mail From: Timothy Holbrook <(email redacted)>

While engine swaps sound like fun sometimes (I love the idea of the
Honda S2000 engine in a Spit - 8500 rpm redline, 240hp, and Honda
reliability, in a car that weighs less than a ton and handles like
crazy!!), you definitely want to do some research before tackling a job
this big. I would strongly recommend reading some Grassroots
Motorsports back-issues. They discuss this topic quite a bit, and did
an extensive (and exPensive!) series on putting a Mazda rotary into a
Spit. Great result, but tons of work, frustration, and MONEY. I would
also recommend checking out Dan Master's newsletters and club dedicated
to engine swaps in British cars. There's a website, but I forget what
it is.... You can get around 170hp out of the Triumph 6 cylinder
without too much problem (head work, header, triple strombergs, cam,
roller rockers), for about $2,500. This may be a bargain when compared
to an engine swap, and you'll have a fun TR6! But if you are looking
for serious, reliable horespower (200+), my opinion is you'll need an
engine swap.

Tim Holbrook
1971 TR6


--- "Vink, Graham" <(email redacted)> wrote:
> From: "Vink, Graham" <(email redacted)>
> To: "'Ed McGuirk'" <(email redacted)>, (email redacted)
> Subject: RE: Possible engine swap for Tr6
> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:42:22 -0500
>
> re rotary engine in a TR6: very interesting idea! (I own an RX-7)
>
> on the RX-7 user boards, there is occasional discussion about putting
> a
> turbo Buick v-6 into an RX-7, which many of us regard as the ultimate
> heresy.
>
> but no question that it would be a lot of horsepower!
>
> Graham
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed McGuirk [mailto:(email redacted)]
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 10:57 PM
> To: (email redacted)
> Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6
>
>
> The truth is that any well done engine swap into a TR6 will have to
> replace
> almost the whole drivetrain especially at 300 HP. There will be
> almost
> nothing left but the shell.
>
> I've got a couple of fetishes. I want less weight and more HP. If I
> was
> going to try it, I would probably want to give a supercharged rotary
> engine
> a try. That would be about 300HP and a few hundred pounds lighter. (I
>
> already know the exhaust won't sound right though)
>
> There are so many British cars I would think about butchering for
> this idea
> but I have kind of a soft spot for keeping the TR6 relatively intact.
>
> But then, I'm just nuts.
> Ed McGuirk
>
> At 07:13 PM 6/17/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:42:54 -0400
> >From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>
> >Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6
> >
> >No offense Dick, but I have to disagree.
> >
> >The weakest links I see in a stock car (after thrust-washers, clutch
> and
> >tranny) are in the rear end/ rear axle bearing components. That is
> based
> >on failures on NON- modified cars. Although there are a few folks
> using
> >big motors in TR6 cars with the stock back portions, I feel it is
> >ill-advised. A lot of the present day racers ( bless you all)
> changed
> >these components due to sometimes spectacular failure........
> imagine
> >loosing a back wheel when the axle shears in the outer hub! One
> other
> >note:Kastner and company used MODIFIED axles and Volvo halfshafts on
> >their successful racers.
> >
> > One of the other posters mentioned the PI cars having 150 HP. That
> is
> >true. It is also true that 150 HP coming thru a 3:45 rear transmits
> less
> >stress on the system than 150 HP thru a 3:71 rear. All PI cars came
> with
> >a 3:45 rear, and most US cars come with a 3.71. I would also respond
> by
> >asking how much is too much power? :^) I personally am after 300
> HP,
> >and that is absolutely out of the question with the stock engine. I
> am
> >not rich, and seeking 160 stretches the pocketbook.
> >
> >Ryan may be OK with Corvair axles and an early diff with a hardened
> ring
> >and pinion. In addition, I certainly would beef up the diff mounts
> on
> >the frame. At a minimum I would talk to the folks at
> >pond.com/~britcars/ to see what their experience
> recommends.
> >
> >Good Luck however you choose to go Ryan
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >PS
> >One of the things to check on that combo Ryan, is where the shifter
> >ends up in the passenger compartment. Take a tape measure to the JY
> and
> >measure from the back of the motor to the center of the shifter on
> the
> >Supra, and compare to the TR to get a general idea. Ergonomics
> really
> >affect the end result in any conversion. That's why there aren't
> many
> >daily driver Cobra's ;^0
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Mail From: "Creamer, Mark" <(email redacted)>

I think the website Tim is referring to is www.britishv8.org

<mc>
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Holbrook [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 1:04 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Fwd: RE: Possible engine swap for Tr6

While engine swaps sound like fun sometimes (I love the idea of the
Honda S2000 engine in a Spit - 8500 rpm redline, 240hp, and Honda
reliability, in a car that weighs less than a ton and handles like
crazy!!), you definitely want to do some research before tackling a job
this big. I would strongly recommend reading some Grassroots
Motorsports back-issues. They discuss this topic quite a bit, and did
an extensive (and exPensive!) series on putting a Mazda rotary into a
Spit. Great result, but tons of work, frustration, and MONEY. I would
also recommend checking out Dan Master's newsletters and club dedicated
to engine swaps in British cars. There's a website, but I forget what
it is.... You can get around 170hp out of the Triumph 6 cylinder
without too much problem (head work, header, triple strombergs, cam,
roller rockers), for about $2,500. This may be a bargain when compared
to an engine swap, and you'll have a fun TR6! But if you are looking
for serious, reliable horespower (200+), my opinion is you'll need an
engine swap.

Tim Holbrook
1971 TR6


--- "Vink, Graham" <(email redacted)> wrote:
> From: "Vink, Graham" <(email redacted)>
> To: "'Ed McGuirk'" <(email redacted)>, (email redacted)
> Subject: RE: Possible engine swap for Tr6
> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 11:42:22 -0500
>
> re rotary engine in a TR6: very interesting idea! (I own an RX-7)
>
> on the RX-7 user boards, there is occasional discussion about putting
> a
> turbo Buick v-6 into an RX-7, which many of us regard as the ultimate
> heresy.
>
> but no question that it would be a lot of horsepower!
>
> Graham
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed McGuirk [mailto:(email redacted)]
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 10:57 PM
> To: (email redacted)
> Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6
>
>
> The truth is that any well done engine swap into a TR6 will have to
> replace
> almost the whole drivetrain especially at 300 HP. There will be
> almost
> nothing left but the shell.
>
> I've got a couple of fetishes. I want less weight and more HP. If I
> was
> going to try it, I would probably want to give a supercharged rotary
> engine
> a try. That would be about 300HP and a few hundred pounds lighter. (I
>
> already know the exhaust won't sound right though)
>
> There are so many British cars I would think about butchering for
> this idea
> but I have kind of a soft spot for keeping the TR6 relatively intact.
>
> But then, I'm just nuts.
> Ed McGuirk
>
> At 07:13 PM 6/17/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:42:54 -0400
> >From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>
> >Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6
> >
> >No offense Dick, but I have to disagree.
> >
> >The weakest links I see in a stock car (after thrust-washers, clutch
> and
> >tranny) are in the rear end/ rear axle bearing components. That is
> based
> >on failures on NON- modified cars. Although there are a few folks
> using
> >big motors in TR6 cars with the stock back portions, I feel it is
> >ill-advised. A lot of the present day racers ( bless you all)
> changed
> >these components due to sometimes spectacular failure........
> imagine
> >loosing a back wheel when the axle shears in the outer hub! One
> other
> >note:Kastner and company used MODIFIED axles and Volvo halfshafts on
> >their successful racers.
> >
> > One of the other posters mentioned the PI cars having 150 HP. That
> is
> >true. It is also true that 150 HP coming thru a 3:45 rear transmits
> less
> >stress on the system than 150 HP thru a 3:71 rear. All PI cars came
> with
> >a 3:45 rear, and most US cars come with a 3.71. I would also respond
> by
> >asking how much is too much power? :^) I personally am after 300
> HP,
> >and that is absolutely out of the question with the stock engine. I
> am
> >not rich, and seeking 160 stretches the pocketbook.
> >
> >Ryan may be OK with Corvair axles and an early diff with a hardened
> ring
> >and pinion. In addition, I certainly would beef up the diff mounts
> on
> >the frame. At a minimum I would talk to the folks at
> >pond.com/~britcars/ to see what their experience
> recommends.
> >
> >Good Luck however you choose to go Ryan
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >PS
> >One of the things to check on that combo Ryan, is where the shifter
> >ends up in the passenger compartment. Take a tape measure to the JY
> and
> >measure from the back of the motor to the center of the shifter on
> the
> >Supra, and compare to the TR to get a general idea. Ergonomics
> really
> >affect the end result in any conversion. That's why there aren't
> many
> >daily driver Cobra's ;^0
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Mail From: "Robert M. Lang" <(email redacted)>

On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Timothy Holbrook wrote:

> While engine swaps sound like fun sometimes (I love the idea of the
> Honda S2000 engine in a Spit - 8500 rpm redline, 240hp, and Honda
> reliability, in a car that weighs less than a ton and handles like
> crazy!!), you definitely want to do some research before tackling a job
> this big. I would strongly recommend reading some Grassroots
> Motorsports back-issues. They discuss this topic quite a bit, and did
> an extensive (and exPensive!) series on putting a Mazda rotary into a
> Spit. Great result, but tons of work, frustration, and MONEY. I would
> also recommend checking out Dan Master's newsletters and club dedicated
> to engine swaps in British cars. There's a website, but I forget what
> it is.... You can get around 170hp out of the Triumph 6 cylinder
> without too much problem (head work, header, triple strombergs, cam,
> roller rockers), for about $2,500. This may be a bargain when compared
> to an engine swap, and you'll have a fun TR6! But if you are looking
> for serious, reliable horespower (200+), my opinion is you'll need an
> engine swap.

Actually, you can get around 200 reliable horsepower from a TR6, but it
will not be tractable and it'll cost a lot of money. To make it reliable,
you need Carillo rods, high compression and a cam. Forget about
streetability.

That having been said, if you can pull engine management into the picture,
you can tune the tractability issues, but I doubt that the motor can be
made very streetable.

That having been said, I spent some time talking with a person from IL
name Eric Quakinbush at Mid-Ohio... he's running PI and 10:1 on the street
with nor problems. I don't know what he's using for pistons, but chances
are with that setup that if any detonation occurs, things will go downhill
_real fast_.

But I'll tell you what... the $2500 number is _way too low_. Make that
number above $5k and then we're talking. $15k if you want the whole
shooting match.

BTW, the stock TR6 rear end seems to be okay for up to 200 HP. I've not
broken any gears in the race car (yey, knock wood), they were "pre-broken"
for me. :=)

As for the engine swap thing, this is a pure personal thing. I would not
buy a TR6 with a V8 in it, for example, but as a tinkerer, the idea of
making one fit has a certain amount of appeal. Just remember on any
project like this - you'd better like the final product, because you'll
never sell it for what it'll cost you to do! If you don't beleive me, drop
Tim Suddard a line at GRM. They put a _ton_ of buck$ at the Ro-Spit.

> Tim Holbrook
> 1971 TR6

C ya,
rml
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Mail From: (email redacted) (Sally or Dick Taylor)

James Franks says:

"Sorry, Dick, but I must disagree", referring to my reply on Ryan's
wanting to put a killer engine in a TR6, using the stock drive train.
First, I take no offense to anyone disagreeing with me. Much of what we
respond to is subjective, with simply too many variables to include
"what could happen, if....."

Let's see on what we can agree on. I believe cars built strictly for
racing must carry a different set of standards. Continually subjected to
full power acceleration, and usually when coming out of corners,
possible bottoming out of the rear suspension can place undue stress on
any axle. This is generally not the case for a street machine.

Horsepower is not what wrings off axles, or tears up the driveline.
Torque does. Torque is at its greatest in the lower gears, and judicious
use of this will keep even stock drive train parts together. I do not
recommend adding gobs of power to any drive train that already has
100,000 miles on it. Tolerances that accumulate can cause whip, and
will break their components. Properly rebuilt parts, as when new, give
great service.

I'm not sure where references to "thrust washers and clutches" fit here.
Personally, I have never had a problem with either, throw out bearings
excepted. This is going back 29 years, and now over 300,000 miles. Same
tranny, and diff.. and admittedly, both are now tired.

I enjoy discussions about modified Triumphs, and would like to see more
of these. We don't even have to agree!

Dick Taylor
'73


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Mail From: "Phil Parcells" <(email redacted)>

I own a 68 Cougar XR7. Maybe I should put a spare 390GT in my Triumph.
Well, then again, maybe not.
Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vink, Graham" <(email redacted)>
To: "'Ed McGuirk'" <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 12:42 PM
Subject: RE: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> re rotary engine in a TR6: very interesting idea! (I own an RX-7)
>
> on the RX-7 user boards, there is occasional discussion about putting a
> turbo Buick v-6 into an RX-7, which many of us regard as the ultimate
> heresy.
>
> but no question that it would be a lot of horsepower!
>
> Graham
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ed McGuirk [mailto:(email redacted)]
> Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 10:57 PM
> To: (email redacted)
> Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6
>
>
> The truth is that any well done engine swap into a TR6 will have to
replace
> almost the whole drivetrain especially at 300 HP. There will be almost
> nothing left but the shell.
>
> I've got a couple of fetishes. I want less weight and more HP. If I was
> going to try it, I would probably want to give a supercharged rotary
engine
> a try. That would be about 300HP and a few hundred pounds lighter. (I
> already know the exhaust won't sound right though)
>
> There are so many British cars I would think about butchering for this
idea
> but I have kind of a soft spot for keeping the TR6 relatively intact.
>
> But then, I'm just nuts.
> Ed McGuirk
>
> At 07:13 PM 6/17/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 19:42:54 -0400
> >From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>
> >Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6
> >
> >No offense Dick, but I have to disagree.
> >
> >The weakest links I see in a stock car (after thrust-washers, clutch and
> >tranny) are in the rear end/ rear axle bearing components. That is based
> >on failures on NON- modified cars. Although there are a few folks using
> >big motors in TR6 cars with the stock back portions, I feel it is
> >ill-advised. A lot of the present day racers ( bless you all) changed
> >these components due to sometimes spectacular failure........ imagine
> >loosing a back wheel when the axle shears in the outer hub! One other
> >note:Kastner and company used MODIFIED axles and Volvo halfshafts on
> >their successful racers.
> >
> > One of the other posters mentioned the PI cars having 150 HP. That is
> >true. It is also true that 150 HP coming thru a 3:45 rear transmits less
> >stress on the system than 150 HP thru a 3:71 rear. All PI cars came with
> >a 3:45 rear, and most US cars come with a 3.71. I would also respond by
> >asking how much is too much power? :^) I personally am after 300 HP,
> >and that is absolutely out of the question with the stock engine. I am
> >not rich, and seeking 160 stretches the pocketbook.
> >
> >Ryan may be OK with Corvair axles and an early diff with a hardened ring
> >and pinion. In addition, I certainly would beef up the diff mounts on
> >the frame. At a minimum I would talk to the folks at
> >pond.com/~britcars/ to see what their experience recommends.
> >
> >Good Luck however you choose to go Ryan
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >PS
> >One of the things to check on that combo Ryan, is where the shifter
> >ends up in the passenger compartment. Take a tape measure to the JY and
> >measure from the back of the motor to the center of the shifter on the
> >Supra, and compare to the TR to get a general idea. Ergonomics really
> >affect the end result in any conversion. That's why there aren't many
> >daily driver Cobra's ;^0


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Mail From: Timothy Holbrook <(email redacted)>

My mistake, I meant to say "reliable, streetable 200 hp". Good point,
you can get 200hp out of a 6 no problem, but I don't think it would be
too good on the street. Well, maybe it could be done with forced
induction, electronic fuel injection, and crank-triggered ignition.
But then you are talking serious bucks!

However, I don't think I'm way off on my $2,000 estimate for 170 hp.

Head work: $900
Header and exhaust: $300
Triple carbs: $400
1.65 Roller rockers: $500
Cam: $160

Dynoed by Goodparts at 170 crank horsepower. That's $2260 for the
go-fast parts. All of this can be easily installed by the DIY-er, so
labor costs aren't an issue.

Maybe we can make a commercial out of this....

"Head work, $900. Roller rockers, $500. Finally blowing that infernal
Miata away on the drive to work, priceless."


Tim Holbrook
1971 TR6


--- "Robert M. Lang" <(email redacted)> wrote:
> Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:06:58 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Robert M. Lang" <(email redacted)>
> To: Timothy Holbrook <(email redacted)>
> CC: (email redacted)
> Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Possible engine swap for Tr6
>
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Timothy Holbrook wrote:
>
> > While engine swaps sound like fun sometimes (I love the idea of the
> > Honda S2000 engine in a Spit - 8500 rpm redline, 240hp, and Honda
> > reliability, in a car that weighs less than a ton and handles like
> > crazy!!), you definitely want to do some research before tackling a
> job
> > this big. I would strongly recommend reading some Grassroots
> > Motorsports back-issues. They discuss this topic quite a bit, and
> did
> > an extensive (and exPensive!) series on putting a Mazda rotary into
> a
> > Spit. Great result, but tons of work, frustration, and MONEY. I
> would
> > also recommend checking out Dan Master's newsletters and club
> dedicated
> > to engine swaps in British cars. There's a website, but I forget
> what
> > it is.... You can get around 170hp out of the Triumph 6 cylinder
> > without too much problem (head work, header, triple strombergs,
> cam,
> > roller rockers), for about $2,500. This may be a bargain when
> compared
> > to an engine swap, and you'll have a fun TR6! But if you are
> looking
> > for serious, reliable horespower (200+), my opinion is you'll need
> an
> > engine swap.
>
> Actually, you can get around 200 reliable horsepower from a TR6, but
> it
> will not be tractable and it'll cost a lot of money. To make it
> reliable,
> you need Carillo rods, high compression and a cam. Forget about
> streetability.
>
> That having been said, if you can pull engine management into the
> picture,
> you can tune the tractability issues, but I doubt that the motor can
> be
> made very streetable.
>
> That having been said, I spent some time talking with a person from
> IL
> name Eric Quakinbush at Mid-Ohio... he's running PI and 10:1 on the
> street
> with nor problems. I don't know what he's using for pistons, but
> chances
> are with that setup that if any detonation occurs, things will go
> downhill
> _real fast_.
>
> But I'll tell you what... the $2500 number is _way too low_. Make
> that
> number above $5k and then we're talking. $15k if you want the whole
> shooting match.
>
> BTW, the stock TR6 rear end seems to be okay for up to 200 HP. I've
> not
> broken any gears in the race car (yey, knock wood), they were
> "pre-broken"
> for me. :=)
>
> As for the engine swap thing, this is a pure personal thing. I would
> not
> buy a TR6 with a V8 in it, for example, but as a tinkerer, the idea
> of
> making one fit has a certain amount of appeal. Just remember on any
> project like this - you'd better like the final product, because
> you'll
> never sell it for what it'll cost you to do! If you don't beleive me,
> drop
> Tim Suddard a line at GRM. They put a _ton_ of buck$ at the Ro-Spit.
>
> > Tim Holbrook
> > 1971 TR6
>
> C ya,
> rml
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bob Lang Room N42-140Q | This space for rent
> Consultant MIT unix-vms-help |
> Voice:617-253-7438 FAX: 617-258-9535 |
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Mail From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>

:^)

Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally or Dick Taylor" <(email redacted)>
To: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "Six pack" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> James Franks says:
>
> "Sorry, Dick, but I must disagree", referring to my reply on Ryan's
> wanting to put a killer engine in a TR6, using the stock drive train.
> First, I take no offense to anyone disagreeing with me. Much of what
we
> respond to is subjective, with simply too many variables to include
> "what could happen, if....."
>
> Let's see on what we can agree on. I believe cars built strictly for
> racing must carry a different set of standards. Continually subjected
to
> full power acceleration, and usually when coming out of corners,
> possible bottoming out of the rear suspension can place undue stress
on
> any axle. This is generally not the case for a street machine.
>
> Horsepower is not what wrings off axles, or tears up the driveline.
> Torque does. Torque is at its greatest in the lower gears, and
judicious
> use of this will keep even stock drive train parts together. I do not
> recommend adding gobs of power to any drive train that already has
> 100,000 miles on it. Tolerances that accumulate can cause whip, and
> will break their components. Properly rebuilt parts, as when new, give
> great service.
>
> I'm not sure where references to "thrust washers and clutches" fit
here.
> Personally, I have never had a problem with either, throw out bearings
> excepted. This is going back 29 years, and now over 300,000 miles.
Same
> tranny, and diff.. and admittedly, both are now tired.
>
> I enjoy discussions about modified Triumphs, and would like to see
more
> of these. We don't even have to agree!
>
> Dick Taylor
> '73


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Mail From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>

Every diff I've seen broken, the pinion had a chunk gone in almost the
same spot. It leads me to believe there was some kind of metallurgy
flaw. I'm gun-shy now.

Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert M. Lang" <(email redacted)>
To: "Timothy Holbrook" <(email redacted)>
Cc: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Timothy Holbrook wrote:
>
> > While engine swaps sound like fun sometimes (I love the idea of the
> > Honda S2000 engine in a Spit - 8500 rpm redline, 240hp, and Honda
> > reliability, in a car that weighs less than a ton and handles like
> > crazy!!), you definitely want to do some research before tackling a
job
> > this big. I would strongly recommend reading some Grassroots
> > Motorsports back-issues. They discuss this topic quite a bit, and
did
> > an extensive (and exPensive!) series on putting a Mazda rotary into
a
> > Spit. Great result, but tons of work, frustration, and MONEY. I
would
> > also recommend checking out Dan Master's newsletters and club
dedicated
> > to engine swaps in British cars. There's a website, but I forget
what
> > it is.... You can get around 170hp out of the Triumph 6 cylinder
> > without too much problem (head work, header, triple strombergs, cam,
> > roller rockers), for about $2,500. This may be a bargain when
compared
> > to an engine swap, and you'll have a fun TR6! But if you are
looking
> > for serious, reliable horespower (200+), my opinion is you'll need
an
> > engine swap.
>
> Actually, you can get around 200 reliable horsepower from a TR6, but
it
> will not be tractable and it'll cost a lot of money. To make it
reliable,
> you need Carillo rods, high compression and a cam. Forget about
> streetability.
>
> That having been said, if you can pull engine management into the
picture,
> you can tune the tractability issues, but I doubt that the motor can
be
> made very streetable.
>
> That having been said, I spent some time talking with a person from IL
> name Eric Quakinbush at Mid-Ohio... he's running PI and 10:1 on the
street
> with nor problems. I don't know what he's using for pistons, but
chances
> are with that setup that if any detonation occurs, things will go
downhill
> _real fast_.
>
> But I'll tell you what... the $2500 number is _way too low_. Make that
> number above $5k and then we're talking. $15k if you want the whole
> shooting match.
>
> BTW, the stock TR6 rear end seems to be okay for up to 200 HP. I've
not
> broken any gears in the race car (yey, knock wood), they were
"pre-broken"
> for me. :=)
>
> As for the engine swap thing, this is a pure personal thing. I would
not
> buy a TR6 with a V8 in it, for example, but as a tinkerer, the idea of
> making one fit has a certain amount of appeal. Just remember on any
> project like this - you'd better like the final product, because
you'll
> never sell it for what it'll cost you to do! If you don't beleive me,
drop
> Tim Suddard a line at GRM. They put a _ton_ of buck$ at the Ro-Spit.
>
> > Tim Holbrook
> > 1971 TR6
>
> C ya,
> rml
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> Bob Lang Room N42-140Q | This space for rent
> Consultant MIT unix-vms-help |
> Voice:617-253-7438 FAX: 617-258-9535 |
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------


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Mail From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>

I don't think the stock rod journals, rods, and pistons (especially if
you are talking turbo) can handle the stress at 200 HP. Maybe I'm wrong,
though.

My project costs are (approximately) Engine, 5-speed T-5 tranny ,
computers and wiring harness.. $275. Narrowed posi diff, drilled for TR6
wheels, with disk brakes... $350 (includes purchase price). Driveshaft,
motor mounts, solid axle conversion... $300. Exhaust, gages.... $150.
Fuel cell and other conversion bits.... $300.

Yes, not every one can do it, but it'll work for me! Cheap reliable 200
HP. (With a Ford 2.3 turbo motor) Plus, I can do hole-shots to my hearts
content!

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Holbrook" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: RE: Possible engine swap for Tr6


> My mistake, I meant to say "reliable, streetable 200 hp". Good point,
> you can get 200hp out of a 6 no problem, but I don't think it would be
> too good on the street. Well, maybe it could be done with forced
> induction, electronic fuel injection, and crank-triggered ignition.
> But then you are talking serious bucks!
>
> However, I don't think I'm way off on my $2,000 estimate for 170 hp.
>
> Head work: $900
> Header and exhaust: $300
> Triple carbs: $400
> 1.65 Roller rockers: $500
> Cam: $160
>
> Dynoed by Goodparts at 170 crank horsepower. That's $2260 for the
> go-fast parts. All of this can be easily installed by the DIY-er, so
> labor costs aren't an issue.
>
> Maybe we can make a commercial out of this....
>
> "Head work, $900. Roller rockers, $500. Finally blowing that
infernal
> Miata away on the drive to work, priceless."
>
>
> Tim Holbrook
> 1971 TR6
>
>
> --- "Robert M. Lang" <(email redacted)> wrote:
> > Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:06:58 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: "Robert M. Lang" <(email redacted)>
> > To: Timothy Holbrook <(email redacted)>
> > CC: (email redacted)
> > Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Possible engine swap for Tr6
> >
> > On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Timothy Holbrook wrote:
> >
> > > While engine swaps sound like fun sometimes (I love the idea of
the
> > > Honda S2000 engine in a Spit - 8500 rpm redline, 240hp, and Honda
> > > reliability, in a car that weighs less than a ton and handles like
> > > crazy!!), you definitely want to do some research before tackling
a
> > job
> > > this big. I would strongly recommend reading some Grassroots
> > > Motorsports back-issues. They discuss this topic quite a bit, and
> > did
> > > an extensive (and exPensive!) series on putting a Mazda rotary
into
> > a
> > > Spit. Great result, but tons of work, frustration, and MONEY. I
> > would
> > > also recommend checking out Dan Master's newsletters and club
> > dedicated
> > > to engine swaps in British cars. There's a website, but I forget
> > what
> > > it is.... You can get around 170hp out of the Triumph 6 cylinder
> > > without too much problem (head work, header, triple strombergs,
> > cam,
> > > roller rockers), for about $2,500. This may be a bargain when
> > compared
> > > to an engine swap, and you'll have a fun TR6! But if you are
> > looking
> > > for serious, reliable horespower (200+), my opinion is you'll need
> > an
> > > engine swap.
> >
> > Actually, you can get around 200 reliable horsepower from a TR6, but
> > it
> > will not be tractable and it'll cost a lot of money. To make it
> > reliable,
> > you need Carillo rods, high compression and a cam. Forget about
> > streetability.
> >
> > That having been said, if you can pull engine management into the
> > picture,
> > you can tune the tractability issues, but I doubt that the motor can
> > be
> > made very streetable.
> >
> > That having been said, I spent some time talking with a person from
> > IL
> > name Eric Quakinbush at Mid-Ohio... he's running PI and 10:1 on the
> > street
> > with nor problems. I don't know what he's using for pistons, but
> > chances
> > are with that setup that if any detonation occurs, things will go
> > downhill
> > _real fast_.
> >
> > But I'll tell you what... the $2500 number is _way too low_. Make
> > that
> > number above $5k and then we're talking. $15k if you want the whole
> > shooting match.
> >
> > BTW, the stock TR6 rear end seems to be okay for up to 200 HP. I've
> > not
> > broken any gears in the race car (yey, knock wood), they were
> > "pre-broken"
> > for me. :=)
> >
> > As for the engine swap thing, this is a pure personal thing. I would
> > not
> > buy a TR6 with a V8 in it, for example, but as a tinkerer, the idea
> > of
> > making one fit has a certain amount of appeal. Just remember on any
> > project like this - you'd better like the final product, because
> > you'll
> > never sell it for what it'll cost you to do! If you don't beleive
me,
> > drop
> > Tim Suddard a line at GRM. They put a _ton_ of buck$ at the Ro-Spit.
> >
> > > Tim Holbrook
> > > 1971 TR6
> >
> > C ya,
> > rml
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> > Bob Lang Room N42-140Q | This space for
rent
> > Consultant MIT unix-vms-help |
> > Voice:617-253-7438 FAX: 617-258-9535 |
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dale <(email redacted)>

Robert

Just a note. The Ro-Spit is for sale. 25K. It is
in this month's GRM magazine.

Dale

--- "Robert M. Lang" <(email redacted)> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Timothy Holbrook wrote:
>
> > While engine swaps sound like fun sometimes
> (I love the idea of the
> > Honda S2000 engine in a Spit - 8500 rpm
> redline, 240hp, and Honda
> > reliability, in a car that weighs less than a
> ton and handles like
> > crazy!!), you definitely want to do some
> research before tackling a job
> > this big. I would strongly recommend reading
> some Grassroots
> > Motorsports back-issues. They discuss this
> topic quite a bit, and did
> > an extensive (and exPensive!) series on
> putting a Mazda rotary into a
> > Spit. Great result, but tons of work,
> frustration, and MONEY. I would
> > also recommend checking out Dan Master's
> newsletters and club dedicated
> > to engine swaps in British cars. There's a
> website, but I forget what
> > it is.... You can get around 170hp out of
> the Triumph 6 cylinder
> > without too much problem (head work, header,
> triple strombergs, cam,
> > roller rockers), for about $2,500. This may
> be a bargain when compared
> > to an engine swap, and you'll have a fun TR6!
> But if you are looking
> > for serious, reliable horespower (200+), my
> opinion is you'll need an
> > engine swap.
>
> Actually, you can get around 200 reliable
> horsepower from a TR6, but it
> will not be tractable and it'll cost a lot of
> money. To make it reliable,
> you need Carillo rods, high compression and a
> cam. Forget about
> streetability.
>
> That having been said, if you can pull engine
> management into the picture,
> you can tune the tractability issues, but I
> doubt that the motor can be
> made very streetable.
>
> That having been said, I spent some time
> talking with a person from IL
> name Eric Quakinbush at Mid-Ohio... he's
> running PI and 10:1 on the street
> with nor problems. I don't know what he's using
> for pistons, but chances
> are with that setup that if any detonation
> occurs, things will go downhill
> _real fast_.
>
> But I'll tell you what... the $2500 number is
> _way too low_. Make that
> number above $5k and then we're talking. $15k
> if you want the whole
> shooting match.
>
> BTW, the stock TR6 rear end seems to be okay
> for up to 200 HP. I've not
> broken any gears in the race car (yey, knock
> wood), they were "pre-broken"
> for me. :=)
>
> As for the engine swap thing, this is a pure
> personal thing. I would not
> buy a TR6 with a V8 in it, for example, but as
> a tinkerer, the idea of
> making one fit has a certain amount of appeal.
> Just remember on any
> project like this - you'd better like the final
> product, because you'll
> never sell it for what it'll cost you to do! If
> you don't beleive me, drop
> Tim Suddard a line at GRM. They put a _ton_ of
> buck$ at the Ro-Spit.
>
> > Tim Holbrook
> > 1971 TR6
>
> C ya,
> rml
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bob Lang Room N42-140Q
> | This space for rent
> Consultant MIT unix-vms-help
> |
> Voice:617-253-7438 FAX: 617-258-9535
> |
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


=====
(email redacted)
Dale Morgan
Chesapeake Va.
1974 TR-6 CF 17477U
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


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Mail From: (email redacted)

In a message dated 6/18/02 2:56:42 PM, (email redacted) writes:

<< I own a 68 Cougar XR7. Maybe I should put a spare 390GT in my Triumph.
Well, then again, maybe not.
Phil >>

lol, Phil....I remember you from the Cougar list! My friend Bill has a 69 XR7
with a 390 in it, he's in Illinois, and has been featured in a lot of Cougar
publications....I had a bunch of Mustangs, now I have a 74 TR6 which I just
bought. It's red, not sure which color, with a black interior. The body is
rust-free, thanks to the California climate. I come from Illinois,
originally, and looked for many years for a decent TR6, but most were rusted
and repaired. The one I just bought is going to need some work, mainly
seats/interior, and a new paint job. It seems to run great, the PO took
pretty good care of her.


Kraig Griffiths
California
1974 Triumph TR6
2002 Jaguar X-Type


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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Ed McGuirk <(email redacted)>

I disagree, I have come to dislike turbos lately. I think the only reason
they are so common is because they are cheaper than superchargers. And
that's true only because there are so many more of them. They certainly use
a lot more high tech materials than a supercharger.

Yes turbos are more efficient but a good intercooler nullifies that
advantage. Positive displacement superchargers give a beautiful fat
powerband that you just can't get from a turbo. A lot of people are
beginning to get tired of project cars that get unimaginable HP levels that
come on so suddenly that nobody can use it outside of a drag strip.

My opinion is that positive displacement superchargers are better until you
need more than 15 PSI of boost. I am envious of that supercharger you got
your hands on.

I also believe that a good supercharger, a large intercooler, electronic
engine management, and probably a cam can almost always get 250 HP from 2.5
Liters. It would even still look kinda like a Triumph under the hood.

Ed McGuirk

At 03:41 PM 6/18/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Ryan Miles <(email redacted)>
>Subject: Re: possible engine swap for TR6
>
>Ryan,
>
> Bravo! I have always thought that a V8 was not the answer for the TR6.
> In recent years I have come to believe that turbo charged engines are way
> cool. There is a TR6 with a turbocharged Ford (not my personal taste, but
> I guess it runs) 4 cylinder engine that makes ~300 horsepower. Personally
> I would like to see someone put a Porsche 944 Turbo engine and management
> system in a TR6. A stock 944 turbo does 0 to sixty in the low 6's and the
> passing power is incredible. The 944 motors were factory tested on the
> high side of 300, and modified they can make 600. I bet the Supra motor
> would reall shove the car along nicely too.
>
> As neat as I think a turbocharged engine would be, I would also like to
> point out that you can make a TR6 engine run well enough to have a lot of
> fun. I don't really know why, but I am having more fun trying to make
> power with the original engine than I ever would if I tried to put a
> completely different engine in the car. The job of hacking the car apart
> sounds like a lot of work to me, and I would be afraid of getting
> discouraged and giving up. My car makes about 140 horsepower right now,
> and of course I want more. I am building another engine for my TR250 that
> should have quite a little more grunt to it. Today I got my newest go
> fast goodie.... a supercharger. I really think that turbos are neater,
> but the price was right, so I will play with it and see if I can make it
> run well.
>
>It's all about having fun... make sure that you build the car that YOU
>want, not the car that will get you the least amount of flack from others,
>you will enjoy it more in the end.
>
> Ryan Miles
>Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup


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Mail From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>

There's nothing wrong with superchargers, but you should take a ride in
my 944 turbo before you decide that turbo's are not an option........
it's both smooth and manageable. Proper turbo sizing and a good boost
controller can take the spike out of the power.

BTW it is 215 HP from 2.5 liters, has over 100,000 miles on the original
turbo and still runs like brand new. Very reliable car, too.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed McGuirk" <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:18 AM
Subject: Re: possible engine swap for TR6


> I disagree, I have come to dislike turbos lately. I think the only
reason
> they are so common is because they are cheaper than superchargers. And
> that's true only because there are so many more of them. They
certainly use
> a lot more high tech materials than a supercharger.
>
> Yes turbos are more efficient but a good intercooler nullifies that
> advantage. Positive displacement superchargers give a beautiful fat
> powerband that you just can't get from a turbo. A lot of people are
> beginning to get tired of project cars that get unimaginable HP levels
that
> come on so suddenly that nobody can use it outside of a drag strip.
>
> My opinion is that positive displacement superchargers are better
until you
> need more than 15 PSI of boost. I am envious of that supercharger you
got
> your hands on.
>
> I also believe that a good supercharger, a large intercooler,
electronic
> engine management, and probably a cam can almost always get 250 HP
from 2.5
> Liters. It would even still look kinda like a Triumph under the hood.
>
> Ed McGuirk
>
> At 03:41 PM 6/18/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> >Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:38:38 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Ryan Miles <(email redacted)>
> >Subject: Re: possible engine swap for TR6
> >
> >Ryan,
> >
> > Bravo! I have always thought that a V8 was not the answer for the
TR6.
> > In recent years I have come to believe that turbo charged engines
are way
> > cool. There is a TR6 with a turbocharged Ford (not my personal
taste, but
> > I guess it runs) 4 cylinder engine that makes ~300 horsepower.
Personally
> > I would like to see someone put a Porsche 944 Turbo engine and
management
> > system in a TR6. A stock 944 turbo does 0 to sixty in the low 6's
and the
> > passing power is incredible. The 944 motors were factory tested on
the
> > high side of 300, and modified they can make 600. I bet the Supra
motor
> > would reall shove the car along nicely too.
> >
> > As neat as I think a turbocharged engine would be, I would also
like to
> > point out that you can make a TR6 engine run well enough to have a
lot of
> > fun. I don't really know why, but I am having more fun trying to
make
> > power with the original engine than I ever would if I tried to put a
> > completely different engine in the car. The job of hacking the car
apart
> > sounds like a lot of work to me, and I would be afraid of getting
> > discouraged and giving up. My car makes about 140 horsepower right
now,
> > and of course I want more. I am building another engine for my TR250
that
> > should have quite a little more grunt to it. Today I got my newest
go
> > fast goodie.... a supercharger. I really think that turbos are
neater,
> > but the price was right, so I will play with it and see if I can
make it
> > run well.
> >
> >It's all about having fun... make sure that you build the car that
YOU
> >want, not the car that will get you the least amount of flack from
others,
> >you will enjoy it more in the end.
> >
> > Ryan Miles
> >Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup


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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Ed McGuirk <(email redacted)>

Porsche does seem to have their turbos dialed in fairly well but very few
cars can remain smooth as they approach 10 PSI. I doubt there are any with
more than 10 PSI. If you want to see smooth I can brag about my
supercharged MR2. It's bumped from stock 8 PSI up to 12 PSI now and it
should be getting about 170 HP from 1.6 liters. My problem is that as you
increase boost on the supercharger the torque peak moves down in RPM and
you need to change the cam to move the HP back up the RPM to where it
belongs. The nice thing is, that change makes even more HP.

I have no problem with turbos at the 5 PSI that most other cars use. They
work great there but if you get carried away by big numbers you need big
boost and the powerband gets narrow and it lags.

If you want stone simple in a TR6 you might try a big engine with a carb
but if you also want light weight and big HP you almost have to go with
some kind of forced induction. You can make a carb work with forced
induction but fuel injection will be easier to tune. That's expensive and
complicated but if you want to do a transplant, money and complications
don't scare you. ;-)

I think the only non boosted carb engine worth playing with is the aluminum
Rover engine. I think you can get one up to 4.5 Liters and it should be
pretty light. Is there any other aluminum engine over 3.0 Liters with a
carb? (once you get involved with MegaSquirt fuel injection (cheap), a lot
more engines seem useable)

Ed McGuirk

At 06:41 AM 6/19/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:41:21 -0400
>From: James Franks <(email redacted)>
>Subject: Re: possible engine swap for TR6
>To: Ed McGuirk <(email redacted)>
>Cc: Six pack <(email redacted)>
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
>
>There's nothing wrong with superchargers, but you should take a ride in
>my 944 turbo before you decide that turbo's are not an option........
>it's both smooth and manageable. Proper turbo sizing and a good boost
>controller can take the spike out of the power.
>
>BTW it is 215 HP from 2.5 liters, has over 100,000 miles on the original
>turbo and still runs like brand new. Very reliable car, too.
>
>Jim


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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>

I'm on the Megasquirt buy this time. I don't like the Rover motor due to
the $$ per HP ratio. Hard to beat American powerplants in that regard.
I'd like a ride in your Toyota. Sounds hot!

The beauty of these lists is that there are all kinds of guys (and gals)
trying all kinds of things.

Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed McGuirk" <(email redacted)>
To: "James Franks" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "Six pack" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: possible engine swap for TR6


> Porsche does seem to have their turbos dialed in fairly well but very
few
> cars can remain smooth as they approach 10 PSI. I doubt there are any
with
> more than 10 PSI. If you want to see smooth I can brag about my
> supercharged MR2. It's bumped from stock 8 PSI up to 12 PSI now and it
> should be getting about 170 HP from 1.6 liters. My problem is that as
you
> increase boost on the supercharger the torque peak moves down in RPM
and
> you need to change the cam to move the HP back up the RPM to where it
> belongs. The nice thing is, that change makes even more HP.
>
> I have no problem with turbos at the 5 PSI that most other cars use.
They
> work great there but if you get carried away by big numbers you need
big
> boost and the powerband gets narrow and it lags.
>
> If you want stone simple in a TR6 you might try a big engine with a
carb
> but if you also want light weight and big HP you almost have to go
with
> some kind of forced induction. You can make a carb work with forced
> induction but fuel injection will be easier to tune. That's expensive
and
> complicated but if you want to do a transplant, money and
complications
> don't scare you. ;-)
>
> I think the only non boosted carb engine worth playing with is the
aluminum
> Rover engine. I think you can get one up to 4.5 Liters and it should
be
> pretty light. Is there any other aluminum engine over 3.0 Liters with
a
> carb? (once you get involved with MegaSquirt fuel injection (cheap), a
lot
> more engines seem useable)
>
> Ed McGuirk
>
> At 06:41 AM 6/19/2002 -0400, you wrote:
> >Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:41:21 -0400
> >From: James Franks <(email redacted)>
> >Subject: Re: possible engine swap for TR6
> >To: Ed McGuirk <(email redacted)>
> >Cc: Six pack <(email redacted)>
> >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
> >
> >There's nothing wrong with superchargers, but you should take a ride
in
> >my 944 turbo before you decide that turbo's are not an option........
> >it's both smooth and manageable. Proper turbo sizing and a good boost
> >controller can take the spike out of the power.
> >
> >BTW it is 215 HP from 2.5 liters, has over 100,000 miles on the
original
> >turbo and still runs like brand new. Very reliable car, too.
> >
> >Jim


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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Ed McGuirk <(email redacted)>

$$ per HP ratio?

Well jeez if you're going to go all practical...

I like driving these cars but I almost like designing new stuff as much.

"We can rebuild him, make him better than before" ->$6,000,000

Ed McGuirk

At 11:51 AM 6/19/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 11:51:22 -0400
>From: James Franks <(email redacted)>
>Subject: Re: possible engine swap for TR6
>To: Ed McGuirk <(email redacted)>
>Cc: Six pack <(email redacted)>
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
>
>I'm on the Megasquirt buy this time. I don't like the Rover motor due to
>the $$ per HP ratio. Hard to beat American powerplants in that regard.
>I'd like a ride in your Toyota. Sounds hot!
>
>The beauty of these lists is that there are all kinds of guys (and gals)
>trying all kinds of things.
>
>Jim
>-----


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